60hz vs 120hz for TV and juddering with movies and gaming at 30 fps

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

So, I've been reading a helluva lot about juddering with 60hz displays while watching movies (especially during panning camera scenes) and gaming under 60fps.

If you're unsure of this problem, check out the first video link in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1069482&highlight=borf


From what I understand, if you're watching a movie (at usually 24fps), then refresh rate should be 24hz or a multiple of it to look completely smooth and without judder.
But if that's the case, shouldn't playing a game at 30fps on a 60hz monitor eliminate juddering, too?
It doesn't.

what I want, is to be able to watch movies on my monitor or TV without seeing that shitty juddering effect when things are moving across the screen, or the camera is panning. It looks like crap (to me at least).

If anyone has insight, please respond.. cause my head is spinnin

Thanks :D

[JustMeBF2]

This is the same theory of screen tearing.
Sync refresh rate to avoid screen tearing on pc monitors.

I have had many different setups and see screen tearing as a myth. LOL

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

Yea, but if I'm watching a movie that's 24fps, then I can't put my refresh rate to 24hz. Unless I'm unaware of a monitor or TV which supports such a thing.

[Hellcat]

My understanding is that most TV models apply some level of post-processing depending on the TV format in order to even out the screen-tearing. This (among other things) is the source of the famous TV lag that is most noticable in games like Rockband. In most games a few miliseconds won't make much of a noticable difference :: <-- flame-bait::, however when you play a timing game, where you are trying to sych up video and sound then it becomes a problem. I'm not sure what the current "lagless" sets are right now, Sony's are pretty bad (and I have a Sony :( ). Also the lag problem is mostly exclusive to LCD TV's and older TV's (plasma doesn't have this issue, however don't crack the glass or it'll be a REALLY expensive paper-weight ;) ). Also, using component or DVI instead of HDMI will get around the lag issue. There won't be much post-processing done on a component Hi-Def signal (it's not a very high-quality signal), and DVI doesn't have the HDCP that the HDMI standard requires. Some models of TV (including my blasted Sony) use pretty laggy HDCP implementations which definitely cause some trouble even if you put the TV into "game-mode"; supposedly turning off all post-processing.

[sir_digalot]

if you are using a pc and video player look for a inverse telecine filter that will reverse the 3:2 pulldown filter and should playback at normal speed

the problem is math *LOL* ( and an archiac way of filming movies)

though i am not sure if any player does this realtime, however wit hte power of todays graphics cards this should besomething capable of being done on the gpu without breaking a sweat (removing 1 frame every 5)

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

Hmm, interesting. I'll have to search for this "inverse telecine filter". I might need your assistance again soon :P


Hellcat, most of what you said went pretty far over my head, but one thing I don't get is the myth that Plasma TV's do not have the juddering effect.

I've seen plenty of new plasma displays and still see juddering the same as I do on any other type of screen.

[Hellcat]

np Filthy, the thing with Plasmas isn't that they don't have juddering, it's that they don't have lag between input, audio, and video (CRT's are the same way, basically no lag). Reall this means that when you press the shoot button on your controller, you hear the sound, and see the shot all at the same time, but on some LCD's you press the shoot button, and a few miliseconds later (sometimes quite a few) you see the shot, and at some other-different time you hear the sound.

I hope that helps some :).

[sir_digalot]

any TV that uses a 3:2 pull down to convert 24 to 30fps will have judder, especially if the origional system is encoded that way, i have seen many postings of people complaining about flicker... howerver a 120hz lcd should be fine, in the end it depends on the price you pay for a TV/monitor as to how it will handle all situations...

sometimes i miss my crt

[Hellcat]

sometimes i miss my crt

I could not agree more!

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

Cool, thx for the info guys

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

So I've been trying to figure out this "inverse telecine filter" thing and I'm not making much leeway.
I use VLC player, but can't find an option for the filter. I've also looked into other players but haven't seen any info on the filter either.

Do you guys know of any more information on it?

I watched a bit of Avatar in 1080p and it's glorious apart from the horrible juddering because of the 3:2 pulldown or whatever.

Curiously I also notice the juddering on 120hz and 240hz TV's, even though they are multiples of 24.

PS. Is there any way of forcing my monitor to be at 24hz refresh rate? Wouldn't that solve the issue altogether?
Video card is ATi 4870
Monitor is HP 2509m

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

I used a program called Powerstrip to custom set the refresh rate of my monitor.
I set it to 24hz, which didn't work out too well since it's not supported, and I also set it to 72hz, which didn't show any improvement...
Although, shouldn't 72hz, since it's a multiple of 24) look smoother than 60hz? It doesn't

[sir_digalot]

what it might be is that the origional video was encoded using telecine so any filter may not work, you may have to re-encode it using an ofline filter to get it back to pure 24fps, vlc (and MPC) does have an option for gpu offload, but i still do not think there is a filter for realtime inverse telecine, i have really only read about it as i am not overly concerned about a bit of juddering, (or never noticed it)

look at the video properties to see what it is encoded in, i bet you will find it is 30fps (29.97)

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

hmm... ok. So confusing, lol

BTW, this is how every movie should look, but don't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fkp5jS42IvM&feature=related


That clarity and smoothness should be the norm for today's movies, especially with 3D tech, which looks really fucked up to me with the constant juddering.

[APOC]

http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm Might help.

APOC

[JustMeBF2]

If you look for it you will see it.
Remember the old movies had a reel change dot on the top right hand of the screen.
Until I new it was there I never saw it.
The same with juddering. In the write up in the link above.
"At two minutes and 3 seconds into the film"
That is why I haven't looked at any of the videos on the juddering topic.
If I see it enough then I will always see it.

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

Yeah, that's true JustMe, but I noticed it enough to research, not knowing anything about it... so I think I'm beyond the point of no return.

Thanks for the link APOC


BTW, I acquired Avatar 720p at 60fps. My GOD, the difference is unbelievable.

[sir_digalot]

i would beg to differ slightly with the article in the simple fact that they say "if you have the equipment" well if i remember correctly, the "correct" equipment happens to be a real film projector and screen, and no i never remember juddering on any movies we screened, in fact i do not recall much if any juddering on those aweful video camera pirate copies either *LOL*

i guess also i never really noticed it much as i hail origionally from a 50hz country, so all they do is speed it up by a third and all is dandy *LOL*

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

So I bought a 42'' LCD 120hz TV for just over $500.

The LG 42LH40-UA to be exact: http://milo.com/lg-42-class-1080p-120hz-lcd-hdtv

It's a fucking badass TV, but I find that the 120hz tru-motion feature tends to stutter quite a bit with fast panning scenes.

Anyone else experience this issue with their 120hz or 240hz TV?

Also, I'm thinking about using it as my monitor instead of keeping it downstairs.

Will my eyes explode if I'm sitting like 3 ft away from it?

[JustMeBF2]

I have played on my 42" 60hz a few times on COD Black Ops.
I got motion sickness but others say that goes away. lol

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

I've been using the 42'' as a monitor for almost a month now and it's absolutely glorious

:D