View Full Version : "better" business model?
Tykwer
07-01-2007, 09:34 PM
Continuous content, server support and its just a better business model. It is better to start off with a monthly fee then add one at a later date because you are losing money.
Is $15 bucks a month that much of an inconvenience?
it's simply a rip off is all. especially when games like wow have an expansion which you have to PAY for. it's a hollow promise and not worth the $. Diablo II has always been free and it got an update 5 years after it was released and just the other day on june 25 2007, the ladder was reset. it's such a shame that blizzard, once a great company, decided to impose this burdensome "business model" and was so hugely successful. i bought warcraft, warcraft 2, star craft, diablo, diablo 2. i didnt get WC3 because they were still adding and changing diablo 2 enough to keep my interest. what im getting at is, i was a very loyal customer of blizzards and then they came out with WOW and unless they go back to their old ways, they are never getting my business again. and it's not like im totally disinterested in MMORPGs. i've played WOW, matrix online, star wars galaxies, COV, DDO, everquest 2, and what ever else...except i refuse to pay monthly fees so i've only played the trial periods and i wouldnt mind buying/playing any of them, but none of em getting my business because of their "better" business model.
maybe this [PotBS] game wont have ridiculously time wasting (money earning) quests and will actually be worth the money. looks good anyways. :dunno:
StevenNevets
07-01-2007, 10:12 PM
I agree x10:thumbsup:
it's simply a rip off is all.
I suppose everything should be free in your world?
except i refuse to pay monthly fees so i've only played the trial periods and i wouldnt mind buying/playing any of them, but none of em getting my business because of their "better" business model.
Do you pay monthly internet fees, cable tv, telephone, gas, electric, and water?
maybe this [PotBS] game wont have ridiculously time wasting (money earning) quests and will actually be worth the money. looks good anyways.
Time and money sinks while annoying are often needed in these games. Without money sinks in a player run economy, inflation will be outrageous.
As for time sinks, what would be the point of building a world where nobody explores if they could have instant travel?
In summary, no one is twisting your arm to buy or play these games.
kilroy0097
07-02-2007, 06:52 AM
Monthly fees are used to pay the paychecks of the programmers who continue to fix bugs and make new additions to patches and new content. Without monthly fees how do you suppose the company continues to pay the paychecks of their employees? Good will? Keep in mind that a lot of the money that comes in initially is paying the investors who put the money forward in the first place to produce the game for the last 6 years.
In PotBS there are some of those quests I would think. Especially when you are doing quests for the Dutch. Otherwise how would a Merchant class player get any money to start off with to buy things and start their merchant trade? As for money sinks there is a huge one in PotBS. It's called upkeep and repair of the ship that you sail. If you don't upkeep it and repair it, then it falls apart and sinks on the first Pirate that attacks you. Ships are going to cost a huge amount of resources to build and those resources are going to take a lot of money to buy.
StevenNevets
07-02-2007, 07:13 AM
Monthly fees are used to pay the paychecks of the programmers who continue to fix bugs and make new additions to patches and new content. Without monthly fees how do you suppose the company continues to pay the paychecks of their employees? Good will?I suppose people buying the game at launch and near it would pay for the developing of the game and all the people buying after could pay for new content and fixes?
Monthly fees are not neccessary for mmorpgs at all, shit there are a few decent ones that are totally free. Just a few adds and that's enough.
If Guild Wars can do it others can too, and yes I will go play it and bug off, why can't others? Just don't like the fact that every other major series is/will run off the monthly fee scheme.
Oh, forgot to mention buying extras. Selling character slots, special weapons, cool pets, ect. Stuff like that. Good way to support the servers and support without forcing the money.
I suppose people buying the game at launch and near it would pay for the developing of the game and all the people buying after could pay for new content and fixes?
I don't think you would be able to find a publisher willing to accept that deal.
Monthly fees are not neccessary for mmorpgs at all, shit there are a few decent ones that are totally free. If WoW was free how many would be playing guild wars?
If Guild Wars can do it others can too, and yes I will go play it and bug off, why can't others? Just don't like the fact that every other major series is/will run off the monthly fee scheme.I am not sure how they are able to support the stuff they are doing. Either they are on a shoe string budget or they have deep pockets.
Sadly the gaming industry is a business, so most decisions will be based on a business outlook.
Oh, forgot to mention buying extras. Selling character slots, special weapons, cool pets, ect. Stuff like that. Good way to support the servers and support without forcing the money.Personally I think this is the worst thing. I would rather play and earn my stuff than just to buy it.
Thrasher_Z
07-02-2007, 07:43 AM
If it makes ya feel any better DDO expansions are free although also has the $15 fee tacked on. The package also includes the servers to play on that are regulated and maintained.
I do get your point but even with BF2 you have to purchase expanions or risk not being able to get on your fav servers. Speakin of servers until you find a "HOME" such as WiH ya never know what yur gunna get on BF2.
How much new content do they produce? Like is there a whole building full of people churning out a constant stream of new stuff(15 dollars worth of new stuff a month)?
I only ask out of curiosity,I would never consider paying a monthly fee for a game.Doesnt make sense to me as there are plenty of good games that I dont have to pay out the ear for(you can call that my "better consumer model")
Prowler130
07-02-2007, 09:01 AM
How much new content do they produce? Like is there a whole building full of people churning out a constant stream of new stuff(15 dollars worth of new stuff a month)?
I only ask out of curiosity,I would never consider paying a monthly fee for a game.Doesnt make sense to me as there are plenty of good games that I dont have to pay out the ear for(you can call that my "better consumer model")
I agree with you blis. And to answer your question, the only constant in wow are the tiny bi-weekly patches that attempts to balance the classes via constant nerfing and buffing. New content is a rare occurrance. Like once every six months a world event might be introduced. And every couple of months there will be a major patch, which wont really add content.
In fact the only new content since the release of the expansion was actually the opening of the new endgame raids and armor... interestingly enough, I dont consider that new content, since it was actually promised with the expansion.
As for the comment made above about how many people would be playing guild wars if wow was free, I would say there would be just as many. There is a cult following behind guild wars. People dont play a game simply because they have to settle for the lesser cost. That is just a perk.
On the other hand though, wow is run on their own servers on a large scale. GW is an instanced based game in which private instances are created on a host and accommodates x amount of players in the party. Diablo 2 was the same way. It was based on a host and had separate game instances spawned from a chat room interface. So when you think about it, although $15 is a bit excessive IMHO, i can believe that alot of it goes to server maintenance and the paychecks of not the developers and programmers, but rather the paychecks of the many gm's and pr people.
kilroy0097
07-02-2007, 10:00 AM
There is a whole lot more to keeping an MMORPG running that simply adding new content, making patch fixes and tweaking balance. How about keeping the servers running software, hardware and server admins? How about paying for bandwidth through backbones? How about paying for property fees and taxes or rent in a building the company is based out of? How about not only paying back investors but keeping everyone employed so they can make another game. I really don't understand the animosity that some people seem to have against MMORPGs and the fact that they cost money. It really doesn't make sense why you would expect a game to be free.
Oh and to answer the question "How does NCSoft NA make money not charging fees." Well here is your answer: http://gigaom.com/2006/10/26/guild-wars/
This article: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guildwars/news.html?sid=6147854 Supports the model they were talking about in as far as chapters or series of books. More updates through content you must buy. Not a huge expansion once every couple of years.
What you are looking at it the reason Guild Wars is very very different from a great many MMORPGs out there. But also it does NOT fulfill what many people are looking for. They had to limit things and cut corners in certain areas to make the product viable. Hence it's a different game and while classified as an MMORPG it certainly is not the same animal that WoW is.
So when someone makes the argument why MMORPGs aren't all free like Guild Wars. Well if you want a game exactly like Guild Wars all the time then I guess you win. I personally want something more than Guild Wars and hence am willing to pay for it.
Tykwer
07-02-2007, 12:29 PM
just to clarify, when i said "time wasting (money earning) quests," didnt mean quests which your character earns money for, but rather that the game developers make the quests so time wasting like "go here and collect X things from Y monsters which may or may not even drop it 1/10 monsters and by making these quests such bull shit, they make sure that you'll be paying them a pretty penny. and it's not just "exploring," it's treking back and forth back and forth back and forth for these pointless quests. i only played WOW for a 10 day trial (well, untill i hit level 20 where they capped it) and it seemed absurd the amount of time it takes just to get from point a to point b. 5+ mins. glad i wasnt paying for it...
anyways, im SURE blizzard is pumping a super majority of those funds back into content development and what not and surely not, heaven forbid, lining their pockets with obscene profits.
just to clarify, when i said "time wasting (money earning) quests," didnt mean quests which your character earns money for, but rather that the game developers make the quests so time wasting like "go here and collect X things from Y monsters which may or may not even drop it 1/10 monsters and by making these quests such bull shit, they make sure that you'll be paying them a pretty penny. and it's not just "exploring," it's treking back and forth back and forth back and forth for these pointless quests. i only played WOW for a 10 day trial (well, untill i hit level 20 where they capped it) and it seemed absurd the amount of time it takes just to get from point a to point b. 5+ mins. glad i wasnt paying for it...
anyways,
Time sinks are a necessary evil in mmorpg's. They are done so the developers can stay ahead of the gamers. What is the point of playing a game that you can max out your character in 4 days?
im SURE blizzard is pumping a super majority of those funds back into content development and what not and surely not, heaven forbid, lining their pockets with obscene profits.
Would you work a job that just makes ends meet?
That is the point of running a business is to make money, as stated before by others, Servers and bandwidth is not cheap.
Tykwer
07-02-2007, 02:19 PM
Time sinks are a necessary evil in mmorpg's. They are done so the developers can stay ahead of the gamers. What is the point of playing a game that you can max out your character in 4 days?
you really think so? you dont think that, with the insane amount of money they're making, they might be able to make each quest interesting instead of using what one might call "mad lib" quests, one in which the creators basically have a quest mould and just change the names of the things you need to kill/collect and places you need to go.
Would you work a job that just makes ends meet?
That is the point of running a business is to make money, as stated before by others, Servers and bandwidth is not cheap.
did blizzard "just make ends me(e)[a]t" before they released WOW? were they just making ends meat when they provided free multiplayer on warcraft? or on diablo? or on starcraft? :dunno:
dont get me wrong, they make MORE money, but they've also lost loyal customers. i mean, you make more money using slaves, but SHOULD we?
you really think so? you dont think that, with the insane amount of money they're making, they might be able to make each quest interesting instead of using what one might call "mad lib" quests, one in which the creators basically have a quest mould and just change the names of the things you need to kill/collect and places you need to go.
Yes the FedEx quest suck, and there needs to be a better way to do them. But then you are also talking about thousands of quests, how do you make them interesting to everyone?
did blizzard "just make ends me(e)[a]t" before they released WOW? were they just making ends meat when they provided free multiplayer on warcraft? or on diablo? or on starcraft? :dunno:
Apples and oranges, Warcraft and Starcraft head to head rts's why would you need to pay a monthly fee on something you can set up on a lan?
dont get me wrong, they make MORE money, but they've also lost loyal customers. i mean, you make more money using slaves, but SHOULD we?
With 7 million subscribers and judging by the reaction of Starcraft 2, I don't think they are too worried about loosing a few loyal customers.
Just to let you know, I was originally against mmo's and paying a monthly fee. That is until I played SWG, I used to buy 3-5 games a month from 45-50 bucks each.So paying 15 bucks a month was a cheap gaming investment for me, and even when I had 4 accounts open I was still paying less than what I was used to paying for a game that I would finish or be bored with in a week.
Bottom line, is if you enjoy the game and wish to play it 15 bucks a month is a small investment to most. If you can't afford 15 bucks a month you really shouldn't be worrying about playing games. If you don't want to pay the 15 bucks then don't.
7 million subscribers!?!?! Wow,they must be rolling in it. 7mil times 15 bucks is what 105 million a month? I need to buy me some shares in blizzard!
Tykwer
07-02-2007, 06:07 PM
while WOW has assured this trend wont die any time soon, which is a shame because it restricts me from playing mmorpgs, i blame everquest for starting it.
vic.tz
07-02-2007, 07:05 PM
Raph Koster (lead designer of Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies) tried to explain it a while back. He does a little Q&A at the end too: http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/busmodels.shtml
SWG was also my first mmorpg, and up until they completely changed/ruined the game, $15 was well worth it. Really, $15 per month is a relatively cheap price for a good source of entertainment that's available 24/7.
Raph Koster (lead designer of Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxies) tried to explain it a while back. He does a little Q&A at the end too: http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/busmodels.shtml
SWG was also my first mmorpg, and up until they completely changed/ruined the game, $15 was well worth it. Really, $15 per month is a relatively cheap price for a good source of entertainment that's available 24/7.
That was a very interesting insight. :thumbsup:
kilroy0097
07-03-2007, 07:47 PM
Guild Wars will cost you about $60 to $80 a year if they continue their release of new chapters semi-annually. The game is pretty but nothing even close to the content of mainstream $15/month MMORPGs. Outside those two models you have a few very small nitch MMOGs that all have different payment models. Some are pay once and play for free and some are also pay monthly but at around $6. The quality of the game and the developer involvement in the game is directly proportional to it's costs.
That article vic.tz posted was pretty good. Thanks for posting it. :thumbsup:
StevenNevets
07-03-2007, 07:57 PM
Guild Wars will cost you about $60 to $80 a year if they continue their release of new chapters semi-annually.Hmm? You can buy the whole set for less then $100.00 and it will keep you busy for year(s).
Hmm? You can buy the whole set for less then $100.00 and it will keep you busy for year(s).
Isn't 60 -80 dollars less than 100?
StevenNevets
07-03-2007, 09:34 PM
Isn't 60 -80 dollars less than 100?Is it? Wow my teachers suck.:wallbash:
The base game is only $20 and can last a solid year then throw in the 2 expansions/new campaigns for about $30 per and you have another year.
Or you pay the same amount and play something like WoW for half a year. When it comes down to the question is it realy that much, no it's not. But there's much cheaper alternatives with the same quality so there's realy no point in bothering unless your confortable with over-spending.
kilroy0097
07-03-2007, 09:45 PM
Hmm? You can buy the whole set for less then $100.00 and it will keep you busy for year(s).
Town Centers are where the only massive social aspect takes place.
Everything else is Quest and Instanced oriented.
PVP involves entering an instance area.
It's a completely different game type. If you like this sort of thing and don't mind the limitations of it then this is fine. You pay for what you get which IMO is less than a normal $15/month MMORPG. Hence to each their own.
We agree to disagree because I doubt, regardless of what I say, I will will be able to change your mind.
You want a free MMORPG. There a several out there. Search for them and play them. Don't expect cutting edge but enjoy the free content.
Prowler130
07-05-2007, 05:12 PM
We agree to disagree because I doubt, regardless of what I say, I will will be able to change your mind.
You want a free MMORPG. There a several out there. Search for them and play them. Don't expect cutting edge but enjoy the free content.
roger that! :thumbsup:
Mad5cout
07-07-2007, 10:35 AM
Those of you that support the concept of monthly fees and give reasons such as: they have to pay for the servers, they have to keep updating it, they have to play their programers and investors, etc., etc., etc. are overlooking a few things.
FACT:
1. The gaming industry (even before monthly fees) grosses more income than any other entertainment industry in the entire country - including Hollywood.
2. I have played games for 15 years and there was a long period of time in which there were no monthly fees, the programers and servers were paid for, there was constantly updated content (Diablo 2 is the best example of this), and the gaming companies were still (see number 1)... that's right... the highest grossing entertainment industry in the country. The gaming companies have been and still are able to fund their servers, programers, updating content, etc etc. with initial sales. Monthly fees are icing.
My opinion:
3. The ONLY reason we pay monthly fees is because the bulk of the gaming community are kids who a) have nothing else to spend their money on, b) irresponsible consumers, and thus c) shown themselves willing to dump money into the corporate abyss for NO REASON (see numbers 1 and 2).
4. Monthly fees would be non-existant if the gaming community as a whole would have boycotted games like Star Wars: Galaxies, WoW, Matrix, etc etc. Had people boycotted, within three months, the fees would have been dropped because the companies would have recongonized they were getting no returns on the game and the monthly fees WERE NOT NECESSARY.
THE REAL REASON FOR MONTHLY FEES: To fill the coffers. period. Make the rich richer.
Furthermore, the gaming industry sells us less game for more money now-a-days. Take a look at half life 1 vs half life 2 or unreal vs unreal 2 (whicsucked btw). Unreal took me two weeks of solid playing 6 hours a day.) I made it through Unreal 2 in less than a week of 1-2 hours a day. What does that equal? Same thing with HL1 and 2. Less programing time means less money you need to pay your programmers plus selling the games for more, equals an exponentially higher return from initial sales compared to the cost of production. This may not necessarily apply to the MMOs as the games are getting larger but hey... its the same companies making them. They gain a little here, a lot there.
response: yeah but there is more game in the graphics and the blah blah blah. That reflects more on current hardware capabilities than it does on how long it takes them to put it together. I have to believe that along with better technology came more efficient ways to program particularly from a graphics stand point.
The main point. Monthly fees are not there because they are necessary to support the games, they exist because irresponsible consumers are willing to pay them for no reason.
The reason those of us who are responsible consumers are frustrated is because we liked these games. I would LOVE to play WoW and LOTR:OL. Unfortunately, it has been ruined for us. I may never get to play an MMO ever again because the gaming community was unwilling to be assertive and ask for more from the companies we have been supporting with our purchases for 15+ years.
Mad5cout
07-07-2007, 10:59 AM
Hypothetical:
When a bum reaking of the sauce comes up to you and says,"Hey man, can you spare a dollar? I really need to go to work and I don't have enough money for bus fare." Do you think, "Man... he must not get paid very well..." "Here you go!" or... do you think, "If I give this guy money, he is going to buy another bottle of single malt whisky." "Sorry, I don't have any cash on me..."
Hypothetical 2:
When a gaming company dripping with cash and revenue comes up to you and says, "Hey man, can you spare $15 a month? I really gotta pay my programers and server admins." Do you think, "Man... these guys are really hard up for cash. I better give them some money or I won't get updating content..." "Here you go!" or do you think... "If I give this guy money, he is going to buy another Lexus." "Sorry, I don't have any cash on me..."
The main point. Monthly fees are not there because they are necessary to support the games, they exist because irresponsible consumers are willing to pay them for no reason.
So who pays for all of the bandwidth and hardware?
Lets look at if from another angle. Say I create a game single player game or even a multiplayer game. Sell it for $50 and sell a million copies. When I am done with it, I wash my hands of that project. You want to play multiplayer, you get you own server and pay for it. You can play it for 5 days day or 5 years. I made my profit.
Now I create a MMO, sell it for $50 and ship a million units. Now I pay for the servers the bandwidth, the customer support, create more content and so on. If you play it for 5 years I lose money cause I am supporting this game for 5 years.
The reason those of us who are responsible consumers are frustrated is because we liked these games. I would LOVE to play WoW and LOTR:OL. Unfortunately, it has been ruined for us. I may never get to play an MMO ever again because the gaming community was unwilling to be assertive and ask for more from the companies we have been supporting with our purchases for 15+ years.
Just because you don't like it, don't call us irresponsible consumers. If you were a more responsible consumer you would not of bought half-life 2 with less content than half-life 1.
Hypothetical:
When a bum reaking of the sauce comes up to you and says,"Hey man, can you spare a dollar? I really need to go to work and I don't have enough money for bus fare." Do you think, "Man... he must not get paid very well..." "Here you go!" or... do you think, "If I give this guy money, he is going to buy another bottle of single malt whisky." "Sorry, I don't have any cash on me..."
Hypothetically, I know he is a bum, so if I have some spare change I give it to. I don't care what he does with it, he can blow it on crack, booze or hookers. Hell he might even drive off in his Lexus and use the money for tolls.
Hypothetical 2:
When a gaming company dripping with cash and revenue comes up to you and says, "Hey man, can you spare $15 a month? I really gotta pay my programers and server admins." Do you think, "Man... these guys are really hard up for cash. I better give them some money or I won't get updating content..." "Here you go!" or do you think... "If I give this guy money, he is going to buy another Lexus." "Sorry, I don't have any cash on me..."
If it something that I want to play it and I think is a good deal, I will pay the fee, if not I won't. If they are making an obscene amount of money, I don't care as long as I am getting what I think is a value.
Lets compare them to Wal*Mart. People are always up in arms about them and the profits they make, yet sell things at a good price hence the reason they are always crowded and make a profit.
Mad5cout
07-07-2007, 12:45 PM
[/B]So who pays for all of the bandwidth and hardware?
Lets look at if from another angle. Say I create a game single player game or even a multiplayer game. Sell it for $50 and sell a million copies. When I am done with it, I wash my hands of that project. You want to play multiplayer, you get you own server and pay for it. You can play it for 5 days day or 5 years. I made my profit.
Now I create a MMO, sell it for $50 and ship a million units. Now I pay for the servers the bandwidth, the customer support, create more content and so on. If you play it for 5 years I lose money cause I am supporting this game for 5 years.
1. You did not read my entire post. People played Diablo 2 for longer than 5 years. I gauruntee that Blizzard did not lose money off of this game. If they were losing money, they would have shut the servers down.
2. If you think non-mmo single player or multiplayer games have no updates and that developers don't continue to improve upon the product in order to make their consumer base happy, you are sadly mistaken.
Mad5cout
07-07-2007, 12:48 PM
Just because you don't like it, don't call us irresponsible consumers. If you were a more responsible consumer you would not of bought half-life 2 with less content than half-life 1.
The difference being, I was unaware this was the case until after I played the game. You don't know until the game is finished. On the other hand, you all jump in headlong into the monthly fees knowing what your getting into.
1. You did not read my entire post. People played Diablo 2 for longer than 5 years. I gauruntee that Blizzard did not lose money off of this game. If they were losing money, they would have shut the servers down.
Yes I did. So how is/was Diablo 2 generating more money?
2. If you think non-mmo single player or multiplayer games have no updates and that developers don't continue to improve upon the product in order to make their consumer base happy, you are sadly mistaken.
I never said that or even hinted that.
They are under no obligation to continue to support their product once its finished. While most of them do do it, is for a good business decision. However they will only do that until they no longer see a profit in it.
I mean why make Half-life 2 when you could just improve on half-life 1.
The difference being, I was unaware this was the case until after I played the game. You don't know until the game is finished. On the other hand, you all jump in headlong into the monthly fees knowing what your getting into.
Exactly, so who is the irresponsible one? Those who were informed and knew what they were getting into, or the ones who just bought it with out reading any reviews?
Mad5cout
07-07-2007, 03:11 PM
Yes I did. So how is/was Diablo 2 generating more money?
It wasn't yet they continued to support it anyway. That's sorta the point...
Exactly, so who is the irresponsible one? Those who were informed and knew what they were getting into, or the ones who just bought it with out reading any reviews?
Arguably you could say either one.
Still, sorta missing the point. I consider that continually spending money on a service that was previously rendered through the initial cost of the game is irresponsible.
You had mentioned Walmart before (although not a parallel example will illustrate a point about responsible consumerism). Walmart gets low prices by underpaying and by refusing equitable benefits to their employees. In the smaller communities, they will underprice items to drive out competition and thus literally take over the town from an employment and product provider standpoint. As a result, the communities that were thriving on smaller businesses and healthy competition often turn into crappy towns with low paid walmart workers with no benefits and only one place to go for their needs. As a result, responsible communities have either fought at the zoning boards to keep Walmarts out of their communities or boycotted the stores in order to close them down. There have been many successes with this and it has literally saved these communities, kept healthy, competitive markets in these areas and promoted adequate pay and benefits for the employee base. One is a responsible decision, the other is not.
As a parallel, the gaming community is currently the community buying into the seemingly good deal. Achieving nothing but paying for services that were previously provided to us without monthly fees and thus paying oney into nothing. The gaming community has a choice to boycott those games which require fees and buy those which do not. It would probably take less than a year for the gaming studios to drop all monthly fees together. So, it comes down to a simple choice: Would you rather pay the monthly fees for no reason, or boycott the games until the gaming studios go back to providing us with these services without the fees as they had been doing for years?
Which is the responsible choice?
It wasn't yet they continued to support it anyway. That's sorta the point...
But that didn't answer the question, how are they generating revenue?
Arguably you could say either one.
Still, sorta missing the point. I consider that continually spending money on a service that was previously rendered through the initial cost of the game is irresponsible.
Once again who should pay for the continuous maintenance of the servers and all of the other costs of with keeping an mmo going?
You had mentioned Walmart before (although not a parallel example will illustrate a point about responsible consumerism). Walmart gets low prices by underpaying and by refusing equitable benefits to their employees. In the smaller communities, they will underprice items to drive out competition and thus literally take over the town from an employment and product provider standpoint. As a result, the communities that were thriving on smaller businesses and healthy competition often turn into crappy towns with low paid walmart workers with no benefits and only one place to go for their needs. As a result, responsible communities have either fought at the zoning boards to keep Walmarts out of their communities or boycotted the stores in order to close them down. There have been many successes with this and it has literally saved these communities, kept healthy, competitive markets in these areas and promoted adequate pay and benefits for the employee base. One is a responsible decision, the other is not.
How many equitable benefits did these mom and pop's places have? The town that I live in has these said small business and the closest walmart is 30 miles away. Guess what the prices are so high there you only shop there when you need the convenience. As for the city with that walmart, they added more big box stores, such as Mejeirs, and target as well. So is it walmarts fault or is it that times are changing? There was a time when people out in the rural areas could only order stuff through catalog stores and wait for it to be delivered.
As a parallel, the gaming community is currently the community buying into the seemingly good deal. Achieving nothing but paying for services that were previously provided to us without monthly fees and thus paying oney into nothing. The gaming community has a choice to boycott those games which require fees and buy those which do not. It would probably take less than a year for the gaming studios to drop all monthly fees together. So, it comes down to a simple choice: Would you rather pay the monthly fees for no reason, or boycott the games until the gaming studios go back to providing us with these services without the fees as they had been doing for years?
Which is the responsible choice?
Every gaming forum I have ever been in, there is always the boycott thread. They never seem to pan out do they, I wonder why?
What do you think these companies will do if they get rid of their monthly fees? I'll tell you what they will do. Obnoxious in game ads and I am not talking about just a splash at start up. Increased initial game costs. How does $99.99 sound for a game? Fee's for game patches? Premium content vs basic content?
So no matter what you are going to pay if you wish to play these type of games. Whether it goes to server maintenance or the developers new Lexus.
I admire your idealism, but you should be a realist about this.
LordBeer
07-07-2007, 04:19 PM
I remember paying a monthly fee for some games before the flood of MMORPG's. I paid for Airwarrior 3 for a few months and I consider it to be money well spent. Hell now that I think of it... CS and BF2 have their own sort of monthly fees. Only the owners are the ones that take care of the majority of that for us. Granted that money does not go into the developers pockets but it still pays for the same things.. Server time and Bandwidth.. :dunno: I'd really hate to see just how much electricity the server farms running WoW use in a month.
Mad5cout
07-07-2007, 11:44 PM
But that didn't answer the question, how are they generating revenue?
OMG, Ichi, this is why I said you did not read my original post. They did not continue generating revenue. That is the point. There was enough revenue from the original purchases for them to runservers and update content for 5+ years. THAT IS THE POINT. They didn't NEED any more revenue. If they were losing money, they woulda said, "sorry can't run BNet for StarCraft, WarCraft or Diablo 2 anymore!! Can't afford to pay our programers to update Diablo 2 content every 6 months or so for 5 years straight. Can't afford to give patches to all these other games..." But they didn't. They had enough money from the initial sales to do this. Clearly, if you cannot grasp this simply fact, then that is why you are paying the monthly fees.
Once again who should pay for the continuous maintenance of the servers and all of the other costs of with keeping an mmo going?
Rather than repeat myself, read the above statement one more time. MAybe go back to my original post too and read that slower.
How many equitable benefits did these mom and pop's places have? The town that I live in has these said small business and the closest walmart is 30 miles away. Guess what the prices are so high there you only shop there when you need the convenience. As for the city with that walmart, they added more big box stores, such as Mejeirs, and target as well. So is it walmarts fault or is it that times are changing? There was a time when people out in the rural areas could only order stuff through catalog stores and wait for it to be delivered.
This is now off-topic and you missed the analogy.
Every gaming forum I have ever been in, there is always the boycott thread. They never seem to pan out do they, I wonder why?
Read the original post. Irresponsible consumers
What do you think these companies will do if they get rid of their monthly fees? I'll tell you what they will do. Obnoxious in game ads and I am not talking about just a splash at start up. Increased initial game costs. How does $99.99 sound for a game? Fee's for game patches? Premium content vs basic content?
Or... they could just do what they had been doing for the 10 years prior to this and give us a great game for $50 and update the content in interest of being loyal to their consumer base using the trillions of dollars they already made on the game in interest of keep said consumer base.
I admire your idealism, but you should be a realist about this.
I am being a realist. If gamers boycotted monthly fees, they WOULD disappear. If they tried to put in ads, buy a different game. If they charged $99 dollars, wait for the price to go down. Premium vs. regular content... they already do this with collectors editions and as long as it does not have bearing on gameplay, I could give a rip.
You know how some games start a $50 and when they don't do well, 6 months later, you see it on the shelves for $20 or sometimes even $10? That is the real cost of development + the store mark-up. Take that extra $30 and multiply it by the number of copies sold and you come up with plenty of money to do whatever you need.
Gruthar
07-07-2007, 11:58 PM
You cannot compare games like Diablo 2 and Guild Wars to MMO games like WoW - they work in vastly different ways. Diablo 2 and GW turn the client into the server, with the company server acting purely as a matchmaker. Matchmaking servers require a hell of a lot less bandwidth and processing power, and are thusly all around cheaper. They can be run without monthly fees. I think the article Vic posted in this thread pretty much covered all this...
As far as getting less game for your money is concerned, that's an unfortunate side effect of all the pretty graphics people have come to demand. Dev teams are much larger now than they used to be. Games nowadays have to run on several platforms, and they require all sorts of specialists on the dev team. Gone are the days when a handful of guys working in the garage could crank out a game (though some of us are still trying :D.) With the increased development overhead and man hours required, there has to be a tradeoff somewhere. Unfortunately for gamers, the casualties have been innovation - particularly with respect to gameplay - actual content, and cost. There's not much that can be done to change that unless you want to subsidize video games or somehow change people's tastes.
The video game industry may generate more revenue than the rest of the entertainment industry, but that doesn't mean that the game studios are making fat profits. I think a lot of devs are paid crap for the hours they put in, and a lot of game studios have gone under. Successes like Blizzard are more the exception than the rule...
OMG, Ichi, this is why I said you did not read my original post. They did not continue generating revenue. That is the point. There was enough revenue from the original purchases for them to runservers and update content for 5+ years. THAT IS THE POINT. They didn't NEED any more revenue. If they were losing money, they woulda said, "sorry can't run BNet for StarCraft, WarCraft or Diablo 2 anymore!! Can't afford to pay our programers to update Diablo 2 content every 6 months or so for 5 years straight. Can't afford to give patches to all these other games..." But they didn't. They had enough money from the initial sales to do this. Clearly, if you cannot grasp this simply fact, then that is why you are paying the monthly fees.
You clearly have no idea on how much stuff costs. Yet you continue think that running diablo 2 and WoW costs the same amount of money. There are no open and closed realms, everything is done on their servers. There is no sharing the load by playing the content offline. Do you think it takes the same amount of time to create a new level in WoW and diablo2?
Not only do I grasp the monthly fees I embrace the monthly fee, read some of my other posts on that subject!
Rather than repeat myself, read the above statement one more time. MAybe go back to my original post too and read that slower.
And obvious you didn't read any of the other posts as well!
This is now off-topic and you missed the analogy.
No I didn't miss it, you just hate capitalism.
Read the original post. Irresponsible consumers
So if they don't agree with you and your thinking, they are irresponsible?
How many people are playing these games? Millions, yep we all must be wrong.
Or... they could just do what they had been doing for the 10 years prior to this and give us a great game for $50 and update the content in interest of being loyal to their consumer base using the trillions of dollars they already made on the game in interest of keep said consumer base.
As said in another post, its a business now! Who is going to invest in a company that says they are going to do that?
I am being a realist. If gamers boycotted monthly fees, they WOULD disappear. If they tried to put in ads, buy a different game. If they charged $99 dollars, wait for the price to go down.
For a realist you use an awful amounts of if's.
Premium vs. regular content... they already do this with collectors editions and as long as it does not have bearing on gameplay, I could give a rip.
I am not talking about a bonus poster that comes in the box! I am talking about areas of the game you cannot explore with out paying or paying extra.
You know how some games start a $50 and when they don't do well, 6 months later, you see it on the shelves for $20 or sometimes even $10? That is the real cost of development + the store mark-up. Take that extra $30 and multiply it by the number of copies sold and you come up with plenty of money to do whatever you need.
Or perhaps it is trying to recover something that didn't sell as well as they thought it would. You know not all games make a profit right?
Lets face it, your just a pissed off Blizzard loyalist.
I am done arguing with you on this, I really don't care if you never get to play an mmo because of the fees. But hey there is always diablo 2 you can play.
Prowler130
07-08-2007, 09:16 AM
im starting to see some negative sounding comments here guys. Lets remember everyone is entitled to their own opinions. It is not anyones responsibility to change those opinions. Post the facts, how you feel about those facts, and move on... lets keep this place flame free, I forgot to buy fire insurance.
As far as the debate goes, I agree with gruthar. All the server did in Diablo 2 was provide the chat interface and hold character data. Anytime you were playing a game, it was based off of a player host. Wow is almost completely instanced on a game server. That requires a HUGE amount of bandwidth and server power. Other games are free (bf2, css, and what not) because multiplayer is based off of privately owned and rented servers.
juuh77
07-08-2007, 06:13 PM
well I had alot wrote out but decided to keep it to myself for now
Mad5cout
07-12-2007, 12:37 PM
not to start up an arguement but rather offer a partial compromise. Why don't these games offer an alternative to monthly fees and you pay for minutes logged on. This would provide a number of solutions. You don't pay for time you can't play. People who log on and idle for days at a time would be incouraged to be more responsible which would in turn reduce the need for extra server resources currently used for supporting thousands of idlers. I personally would pay for a game that worked this way rather than paying a flat monthly fee which did not take in account my actual play time.
How it would work: The servers would log the amount of time your CD key (or perhaps something like a Steam ID) was logged in. The company would send you a bill for your minutes of play each month.
:dunno:
Gruthar
07-12-2007, 02:41 PM
Not a bad idea... only thing is I would expect that you would have to prepay for your game minutes/hours.
Mad5cout
07-12-2007, 06:38 PM
Interesting point. I suppose that as long as you could add minutes at anytime (so as to not cut you off in the middle of something), then this would be no problem. Come to think of it, this would be a great way for parents to monitor their childs game time. They pay for X amount of hours a week and the kid uses them in a responsible manner.
I AM A GENIUS. I know you guys think so too...
kilroy0097
07-13-2007, 01:52 AM
Interesting point. I suppose that as long as you could add minutes at anytime (so as to not cut you off in the middle of something), then this would be no problem. Come to think of it, this would be a great way for parents to monitor their childs game time. They pay for X amount of hours a week and the kid uses them in a responsible manner.
I AM A GENIUS. I know you guys think so too...
World of Warcraft has prepaid cards that you put amounts on. These cards don't exist in the US except for monthly but exist in the Far East in hourly rates. If those cards over there came over here then this would be a reality. Parents would then buy a certain amount of hours, the card is used online (some code I assume) and then it's done. Of course this could be completely automated online so it's set to a certain number of hours per month standard unless changed. But they would never do that because they of course want everyone to play as much as possible and live their lives in the World of Warcraft. Responsibility was never a business model, it was something forced upon businesses.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.