Wow...Another reg busted for hacking.

[-LiT- Killer_B]

http://www.warishellgaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13991


I don't want this to turn into a flaming contest but what does everyone think about this???

I remember starting out on this server over almost two years ago with nate, back when he was in SPC...

[Nsane]

Don't tell me you actually believe that. Come on people I have played with Nate for a long time, nearly a year, and I can vouch for him. If you believe he is hacking you have been seriously mislead. :dunno:

Rizzo lives down the street from him so why not ask him about Nate.

[DoctorToxn]

You know that talking about it will not change the admins minds. Multiple admins decided that he was hacking WHILE not knowing it was him. It's not like the admins are out to get anyone... They are just trying to keep the server clean so that everyone else can have a good time and WiH continues to remain the best gaming place ever.

@Nsane
Do you think that making an uproar with your constant badgering and "GG WiH, way to ban and uphold the ban on a clean, loyal reg." sig will help the situation at all, or just cause problems in the community?

[wihadmin]

Since we're going to have this thread, I'd like to have it in its entirety. So I'd like to get permission from Nsane and Rizzo to post their PM's to me here in public so that we can have full disclosure on this topic.

[-LiT- Killer_B]

@Nsane
I don't know 100% if he was hacking or not, b/c I wasn't there to view him, and I personally don't have any evidence that he was. Here's what I do know, I trust the owners and admins of this community to make decisions fairly and without haste.

[Nsane]

Go ahead Post my pm to you. That will show my opinion on the matter. As a matter of fact if I still have it I will.


Edit: I cleaned out my private messages so go ahead.

@doctox: That's exactly how it seems. It seems that they had it out for him. So what if they didn;t know that was him by his name. A quick id check would have shown it, especially if he was already on the watch list.


and as for my uproar... how else am I supposed to react to someone who is innocent being banned. Now if you can show some proof, ie incriminating ss's or demos then I will accept this, but there is no proof. Just accusations.

[[W33T] Canadian23]

i know nate for a long time and he plays this game for so much time and being gun game having the werids hitboxes i've seen bs shots are very possable could be the mod. when heat good banned for haxxing you can really tell he was as the cross hairs jerked to peoples heads and bam headshot. after a while it seems to me after playing for a long time you have a good idea how high to aim to get headshots and pop out and hope for the best and over time odds are you get more hs. i just don't belive that nate uses any haxes to get ahead of people he knows well. or could it be cause he was 2 steam accounats that got him banned.

ok thats my idea of all this. but adims have the last word even i don't like it i'll respect it.

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

For the record I wasn't on the server when they banned Nate, and I've had little to no problem with Nate as a whole in the past. I had no part in the decision to ban him.

Nsane, what would be, if any, the reasons for the admins on WiH to be displeased enough with Nate to ban him for nothing? As a person and player he did nothing wrong (up until he was found to be hacking).
If you actually believe that the owners would ban Nate because he "owns them", or they have a grudge against him, then you clearly haven't been paying attention for the past.. what is it? 2 years?
Why do you play on this server and check the forums? Cause WiH kicks ass, right? Because the admins keep it clean of smacktards. Because everyone has a good relationship with each other and we keep a good attitude.
The fact that you don't trust in the owners/admins of this server shows your lack of loyalty and respect.
I think that's bullshit. If you don't like the way it is here, then beat it. You have your own server to play on, why not stick strictly to that if WiH aint so great.

As I said, I was not there when Nate got banned, but I don't question the owners/admins because I trust them. Even if I wasn't an admin, which I wasn't for the first year and a half playing on this server, I would trust them because I am a loyal regular on this server.

I know what it's like to have one of my clan booted for hacking... it's not a good feeling. I dealt with it, you should too.

[wihadmin]

Are you kidding me? Nate is totally clean. Are you judging him b/c he has two accounts. One is actually his borther's Mad Max beon death (or something close). This is sad. I thought you guys were good admins, but from the looks of things you don't know someone who's skilled from someone who's hacking.


That is your opinion Nsane. Since you obviously are more knowledgable than us, why don't you teach us how to spot hackers then. So shut up, put up, or take a hike!

So far, no instructions from Nsane on how to spot a hacker. Also, please correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Heat also in your CAL clan? Wasn't he a hacker? Surely you must have known that he's a hacker then.

Remember Eject? He was a WiH regular as well that was caught hacking. I'll bet you had no clue he was hacking did you, until we busted him.


@doctox: That's exactly how it seems. It seems that they had it out for him. So what if they didn;t know that was him by his name. A quick id check would have shown it, especially if he was already on the watch list.
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? We admins had it out for Nsane even though he's under an alias? If we didn't want Nsane to play here, we'd just ban his ass off the server and the community a long time ago.


Now if you can show some proof, ie incriminating ss's or demos then I will accept this, but there is no proof. Just accusations.
If we are the Police and several officers witnessed a man shooting another man and arrested him. Would you want proof as well? Here at WiH as in the real world, there are those we place our trust into to keep the servers clean. In this case, it wasn't just 1 jr admin, but 3 senior admins reaching the same decision. I suspect that even if we have 12 admins watching and agreeing, you'd still protest. Furthermore, SS and demos are all niceties that are not required to make a decision.

[marcusforealius]

@doctox: That's exactly how it seems. It seems that they had it out for him. So what if they didn;t know that was him by his name. A quick id check would have shown it, especially if he was already on the watch list.


"already on the watch list" should be a big hint. His responce in the ss post makes him sound like a hacker more than anything else. He sounds like every other hacker that ever posts here to get unbanned:thumbsdown:

[Nsane]

1) heat has not recently been on our CAL team, if at all, this would have been 2 or 3 seasons ago when even YOU GUYS thought or he was clean

2) With Eject, there is PROOF, besides then I didn't have the experiance I do now with looking for signs of hacking

3) I said that is what it looked like to me, I never did say there you WERE out to get him, I only said what I have seen

4) Once again the no demos or ss's comes down to misreading how someone plays. This goes back to my comment on not knowing skill from hacks.

[Nsane]

"already on the watch list" should be a big hint. His responce in the ss post makes him sound like a hacker more than anything else. He sounds like every other hacker that ever posts here to get unbanned:thumbsdown:

I would have the same responce, bieng wrongfully accused of hacking.

[Blis]

When I first read that nate had been banned i couldnt believe it.There are a few people at wih who i think probably hack but I'd never even had any suspicions regarding nate.

I was going to speak up in his defense because i've always thought he was just a good intelligent player who tries hard.But I played with him the other day on the ace server and for the first time I found myself thinking he was walling.
There were four or five occasions when he seemed to look straight to where i was even though (I thought ) I had gotten to that spot unnoticed and i was in a position that would be highly unlikely to be checked(at least not the first place he would check as it was a very big map). I would go into more detail but theres not much point.

Obviously my suspicions could have been totally wrong and i apologise for mentioning them if you are legit.

I dont know how much time the admins spent watching him but I would hope it was a good long time as its not easy to call esp for sure(unless its stupidly blatant) without spending a good amount of time observing a player. There are plenty of times i've done something in game and thought if anyone was watching me it would so look like hax. I have a bit of a habit of looking where i'm thinking and if what i'm thinking at the time is correct i would seem to be tracking someone through a wall. I also look seem to be looking at walls and ceilings alot when i'm infact moving my ears to help get a fix on a sound that i'm hearing.

One must also remember that people arent always looking where their crosshairs are.I often move my sight just far enough to use my peripheral vision to check somewhere.

In short,the appearance of tracking through walls every now and again does not have to mean hax.

As for impossible shots,if it wasnt possible it wouldnt happen.I havent been on much lately but from what i've seen of nate recently his aim doesnt appear to be noticably better than normal.He is a good shot but he's far from amazing and i've seen much better players who i'm convinced are legit.I dont think he aimbots.

From the little i saw the other night I suspect he may have esp but i'm far from convinced and my suspicions may have be influenced by the fact that he just got banned.I wouldnt have banned him from my server just based on that hour that i saw.I hope the admins viewed him for long enough to make as sure a decision as is possible.

One has to remember that an inteligent person will often know where the enemy is,what he is thinking and where he is going even though he cant see him.

I didnt see the play he got banned for so i cant agree or disagree with the decision but I was surprised by it.

Right or wrong its nice to see the admins arent afraid to ban a reg.

There are a couple of people at wih with very obvious(imo) esp.I wont name names as i dont believe in ratting on people but you know who you are.If you care about playing here I would suggest taking nates banning as a warning that you should stop.

EDIT: wow i took way longer to write that than i thought. Like 8 people posted in the time it took me

[atomicbob]

If I had a few beers in me I'd probably go off on my, "Why the hell would anyone want to cheat a freakin game?" rant.

You know, the one where little sissy boy hackers have yet to grow into their pubic hair.....

But, since I haven't I'll just say that the admins here have my total support and I trust them to make the correct call.

[Nsane]

Blis I can say that I have done similar. Playing competitivly makes you check EVERYWHERE someone COULD be hiding. Also on that server it is 33 tick and I have found that I have been knifed from way farther than should be by many different people, also, I have gotten many shots I thought I missed either due to lag or the tickrate. So the server itself makes it hard to actually say, plus that on top of that your playing outside the US wouldn't help either. This is one reason people outside the US are not eligble for the ping imbalance rule.

[wihadmin]

1) heat has not recently been on our CAL team, if at all, this would have been 2 or 3 seasons ago when even YOU GUYS thought or he was clean
The point here is that you had no clue either.


2) With Eject, there is PROOF, besides then I didn't have the experiance I do now with looking for signs of hacking
At that time, hacks were not advanced enough to detect remote snapshots. In addition, Eject posted his snapshot showing his hack. What if he didn't? Does that mean that you would have considered him innocent?


3) I said that is what it looked like to me, I never did say there you WERE out to get him, I only said what I have seen
Now you're just backpaddling and playing semantics. You said

It seems that they had it out for him.


4) Once again the no demos or ss's comes down to misreading how someone plays. This goes back to my comment on not knowing skill from hacks.
And again, I ask you please teach us how to tell skill from hacking. Plus also tell me how you were able to see what our admins saw to make the claim that we don't know what we're doing.

I think Filthy said it best. You have no trust nor respect in our admins. You don't agree with how we run things. Furthermore, you have a clan. You have a server. You have a forum. If you truly believe that Nate is clean, then please welcome him onto your server and your forums.

If you're here to only cause trouble, then you're nothing but a no good troll. So let me ask you Nsane. Why are you here?

[Nsane]

To try and help Nate at this point but it seems in vain. If it were not for this post you wouldn't have seen me around here again, except for waiting for a post like this. Well as you have said, I'm all set I don't need this community. Thanks for good times, but it seems they are over.

[Grim_Scythe]

If everyone remembers when Saur was under the spotlight for dear ever...I would have imagined the admins probably gained some experience in spotting hacks...I mean damn that took a long long time before Saur was declared clean...

[marcusforealius]

To try and help Nate at this point but it seems in vain. If it were not for this post you wouldn't have seen me around here again, except for waiting for a post like this. Well as you have said, I'm all set I don't need this community. Thanks for good times, but it seems they are over.


Again

[lilrizzo]

This is really screwed up. We keep making post about nate saying he hacks and we got him under a diffrent name doing it.. LOL I grew up with nate when i was 3yrs old. He don't hack HE DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO USE A COMPUTER. His brother MadMax just built him a 5 thousand dollar computer because he loves to play css and BF2. PLEASE STOP MAKING FORUMS ON HIM SAYING HE HACKS. Because u all know he just takes css alot more serious than most people. He is a one of kind css player. WELL I JUST WANTED TO STATE THAT HE DOES NOT HACK "HINT" I would be the first person to know if he hacks... But know that one of the best players around that dosen't hack is being banned because they think he hacks. Warishellgaming will never be the same with out NATE. So u might not see me as often. I still don't believe how u guys can say he hacking all those ss where clean u have no right to say he was hacking than people watching him. No disrespect to any admins but there are alot of jealous admins..LMAO


PLEASE STOP SAYING HE HACKS U HAVE NO PROOF...

@wihadmin
And again, I ask you please teach us how to tell skill from hacking. Plus also tell me how you were able to see what our admins saw to make the claim that we don't know what we're doing.

How to tell skill from hacks idk about that one but nate is all skills.. And what your admins seen don't matter because his computer is beyond anybodys computer here yea i know it might sound werd but what your admins see when spec is not the perfect thing because his is 100x faster and u just see what your computers show. So yea if i spec nate yea he might look weird go to his house and its so smooth that its crazy.

[wihadmin]

Warishellgaming will never be the same with out NATE.

That is for sure. 1 less hacker is a good thing!

[Lord ALF]

Not to derail the flame war building here but... I don't think a lot of you realize how much of a toll this takes on Admin. I leave work to come home, grab a bite to eat, take care of the dogs, and jump online to game with some friends… and when I say friends, that means everyone in the WiH community. I game online to release the pressures of real life, goof off, and call Fozz and Capt. Cal asshats. The last thing on my mind when I get home is that I’m going to ban anyone from the server, nil a reg. It is totally preposterous to think that we have it out for ANYONE on any of the servers, and it is completely ludicrous to believe that we don’t know hacks from skill. There’s a fine line between the two and trust me, that vast majority of people gaming online do not pwn 24/7, contrary to popular belief.

As a community we are only as strong as the weakest member, and if that member believes that hacking our servers to get a head in a game trumps the enjoyment of playing for the rest of our members, they are sadly mistaken. We pull together as a family; this is true when a member posts some sad or personal news in the forums, or when a birthday greeting is posted by another member; and it’s true when it comes to banning. The admin and owners get together and poke at it from every conceivable direction. To believe that we merely hand out bans for the thrill of it or because we lack in understanding shows a small mind on the part of that individual.

I am sadden by this. I had to ban a clanmate, a fellow gamer, and a friend… and some of you wish to throw salt in the wound.

:thumbsdown:

-alf

[lilrizzo]

wihadmin U CAN GO F U CK YOURSELF he dosen't hack he all skill. F U C K U AND YOUR PUSSY ASS ADMINS THAT BANNED HIM..

[DoctorToxn]

WOW Rizzo... could we please... be a little calm about...... A Game?

[marcusforealius]

wihadmin U CAN GO F U CK YOURSELF he dosen't hack he all skill. F U C K U AND YOUR PUSSY ASS ADMINS THAT BANNED HIM..


didnt you come in here to be somewhat of a character witness....Oh well.

[wihadmin]

wihadmin U CAN GO F U CK YOURSELF he dosen't hack he all skill. F U C K U AND YOUR PUSSY ASS ADMINS THAT BANNED HIM..

alrighty....

[lilrizzo]

To u its a game to others its a sport.

[-LiT- Killer_B]

a sport...come on thats absurd. Sports are played by athletes...its like saying poker is a "sport."

[Grim_Scythe]

To u its a game to others its a sport.

Oh my....when did gaming become a sport?

Okay I'm going to go laugh in a corner.

[atomicbob]

Hmmm.....That was an interesting tact.

http://gprime.net/board/images/smilies/horse.gif

[Kir Kanos]

woa hang on guys! stop the mayhem! Here are my two cents: I don't think WIH handeled this completely. I know this place is yours and you guys make the calls, but for us as fellow players of WIH I think it would be settle in our minds if you would try everything in your power to prove or disprove his act of hacking. NAte has been with us for so long, its just not right to throw him to the wind without building enough evidence.

Oh and WIHadmin, I really found it awful how blunt you were by saying 1 lesshacker! Pretty coldhearted considering how long nates been with us! Excuse rizz, because if kev hypothetically got banned for certain reasons, I would be furious if you handeled it like this!

I just feel that it would settle better with us if you could provide more evidence to us.

And guys gaming is kinda classified as "cyber Athletic" (Thanks to CAL.) So Don't get so offended because some say toe-ma-to, others say tomato. nuff said!

[Anti-sinGuardian]

i just want to say i dont think nate hax, i dont care whos right whos wrong hes my best friend im on his side.
whats the point to argue about it if we cant change the fact?
i respect wih's decision
peace

[EANeuspeed]

wihadmin U CAN GO F U CK YOURSELF he dosen't hack he all skill. F U C K U AND YOUR PUSSY ASS ADMINS THAT BANNED HIM..

And I thought BF2 and 2142 had problems(lol). Not wise to call wihadmin names or the admins.
TISK TISK.

[wihadmin]

Oh and WIHadmin, I really found it awful how blunt you were by saying 1 lesshacker! Pretty coldhearted considering how long nates been with us!

What's cold hearted here is that a player who's been with us this long turns to the dark side to hack. That's a lot of disrespect and a lot of hope that we won't catch him. The fact is that we did catch him hacking. We didn't ban him bc someone said he was hacking. We caught him hacking on our server by 3 senior level admins. So you're damn right I'm gonna call a hacker a hacker!

[ATNryan]

Alright, I figured since things have gone this far that I might as well say my piece. First of all, being a clanmate of Nate, I have his back. I truely do not believe that he hacks in anyway at all. I have played with Nate hundreds of times, just like many WiH regs, and have never once thought he was hacking even while specing him. I played Cal with Nate and he wasn't any better than most of our teammates on any one day. I got to watch his screen every round after I died and not once did I see anything wrong (believe me, I have seen my fair share of hackers and he didn't even set off and alarms in my view).

Second, during the Cal season and MANY scrims, Nate was always one of the people on our team who would suspect others of hacking (along with myself) on other teams. We always checked them out during scrims and what not. For me, this is not the attitude of someone who hacks. If a hackers believed someone else was hacking, they would most likely turn on their hacks and fight back, but this did not happen once.

Third, I would greatly appreciate if WiH could tell us who the 3 admins were who decided to ban Nate. I know this may be confidential, however, I have a funny feeling that one or maybe even two of them are not as seasoned as they may think (this is not an attempt to bash WiH admins, I personally would just like to know because I feel I and many others regs here would have been able to spot a hacker better than them).

Fourth, I am actually somewhat saddened by some of the regs attitudes in this case. There are people like Blis, who are always respectful no matter what, and then there are others who make some very immature comments. I am 23 and have never taken gaming so seriously, but come on, some people really need to grow up when posting even though they may only be 15. As for Rizzo, buddy, you are also my clan mate, and I have said this before, you really should not out burst like that. It is extremely disrespectful to the community. Please remember this is just a game, even though I may view it as a sport just like you and Nate. Also, as an admin, WiHadmin, I would expect more of you, but you have made some comments that weren't so tasteful for someone in your position of power. I wish everyone would take a closer look at themselves and what they type before making awful comments.

Lastly, but sadly, I know there is no way that Nate will get unbanned. I almost started a poll for the community to vote whether or not to give Nate a second chance since he is such a respected member of this community. I would just hope that one day, WiH, may rethink this policy and give players a sort of probation so that they could come back to their home.

Sorry for the long rant, but I had to let you guys know where I stand. I still love this community and would never think of leaving. However, this has left a scar that I will always remember. I do respect everyone at WiH, even though I haven't been around much, but I will be back later this month and hopefully things will have calmed down a little bit.

[Kir Kanos]

What's cold hearted here is that a player who's been with us this long turns to the dark side to hack. That's a lot of disrespect and a lot of hope that we won't catch him. The fact is that we did catch him hacking. We didn't ban him bc someone said he was hacking. We caught him hacking on our server by 3 senior level admins. So you're damn right I'm gonna call a hacker a hacker!

Most of everyone here believes that those SS as evidence are so unworhty to classify him as hacker. (as do others.)

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

It's not the screenshots AT ALL that the call was based on. There were 3 admins spectating him at the time of the banning.
Screenshots are like a backup, they aren't essential.
You're right, the tangible evidence isn't sufficient, that's why 3 witnesses were there to support it.
Same thing happens in court.. in the real world. How else would you have this situation play out?

Actually, let's everyone be constructive here.
If how the admin team handled Nate's situation isn't to your liking, then tell us, what would you have liked to see differently? I'd love to hear it.

[bo_67]

just by reading the post i feel the admin did a great job:bow: im glad they are on top of it!!


Dont feed the trolls:lol:

[FozzyBear]

I will pony up and say I was the one who actually dropped the axe on the first account Nate was playing with.

We were in TS, and also in admin chat in-game discussing this player. I don't remember if I checked the player list to see what his alias was, if I did I didn't recognize it. :dunno:

We don't play favorites when it comes to players, but I would have been more diligent about getting the Demos. :slap: Keep in mind, the demos are to get other admins opinions on also. Not proof for the community. Since there were 4 admins actually on, one being a relatively new CS:S player, and the other 3 of us agreeing on this player. There really was no reason for us to record a demo. Agree/disagree that is your option.

We banned this PUB player from what I, and the other admins present, believe to be a confirmed hack. I consider myself an experienced player. I know how to listen to sounds. I know how to walk SO I can hear. I know to use the radar to see where the enemy was spotted, and give you an idea of where a player was. I know to check corners. I know to anticipate where players will typically be. I know to aim for the head/chest area when running around. I know to burst my gun to get a better grouping. I know which guns have a higher BullShit probability.

In short, I know when someone looks through a wall and follows someone making no sound it is BS. I also know that when someone rushes to the exact spot someone is, without having ANY normal help (other player spotted the enemy, he spotted the enemy, enemy reloaded their loud ass gun and gave away their position, enemy ran and his footsteps gave away his position, the enemy is camping and hasn't moved, ETC..... ) that the player is full of it. Just so you don't think I am making a generalized statement that you all are saying "DUH!!! of course he's hacking", this is the exact situation that we busted the PUB player, that turned out to be NATE on another steam_ID. There was more, but that is what sealed his fate. :dunno: what would you have us do? :dunno:

I have never said I am the best, nor do I have a problem getting owned. It happens to everyone. Nor do I think I am flawless when it comes to my decision making, that is why we have an admin TEAM to get the viewpoints from other experienced players.

To INSULT the admin team, and WIH in general, by saying that we ban all the good players is just insane. It also proves that you are not very experienced, or haven't been here too long, or are just immature. (could be all 3)

I'm sorry we caught your friend. I'm sorry we caught your clanmate. I'm sorry we caught MY friend, and someone I have enjoyed playing CS:S with for A LONG TIME. So to all of you that thinks this was an easy decision :upyours: We CAN NOT play favorites as the admins here.

There was a SEVERAL page discussion on this ban in the admin forum. We do not take banning of regulars lightly. We value our community members, but we value the integrity of WIH more.

So to put it as simple as possible. If we lose the community over a ban, so be it. We will not lose sleep over it. We did what we felt was right by the community. You don't have to agree with the ban, but just know it was a legit ban.


@Nate

I'm sorry to see you go. I've enjoyed many, many, many hours of gaming with you and getting to know you in TS. But things got to be the way they way they got to be. :(

Later Nate.

[Ichi]

Well said Fozzy. :thumbsup:

[bman65]

I was playing at that time, and I honestly thought the guy was hacking. (At this time all I thought it was a random hacker). I remember playing with Nate and he was very, very good. I can't say definitivley whether or not he was hacking but man he was getting headshots left and right, and almost seemed to have a sixth sense in finding us (although that wasn't hard on a gg map).

I'm not sure whether or of action taken, but I'm willing to put my name in the hatnot I agree with the banning and course for those who saw what happened and agree that it was very suspicious. He was playing extremly well, to the point where I thought he was hacking, not blatant like all HS hax.

Without knowing it was Nate, I completely agreed with the course of action, but knowing that it is him it akes the decision I'm not sure what to think. Nowing Nate has played here for a long time, I know he is very good and capable of being an excellent player for a long time. That said if it was a non-reg I would agree whole-heartidly, and being regs should not entitle us to special privelages, so I agree with what was done.

How this manner was handled (by both sides) I don't want to get into because that is a whole other manner.

And thats my 2 cents,
Bman

Edit: Just read fozzy's post and completely agree (I pretty much am saying the same thing).

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

I think Fozz said it best. Not much else to add from me.

[kem$]

It doesn't matter if we think nate hacks or not, the admins aren't going to change their decision.. No matter how much Nsane or anyone else argues the case. I enjoyed playing with both of them, but there's nothing us non-admins can do about it... It's either accept the decision or possibly find another community... and when it comes down to it, I'm loyal to wih.

Obviously we'll never know 100% if he was hacking or not, only Nate knows that.

Peace Nate & Rizzo.. It was fun.

[Kev Kanos]

I was clan mates with nate so I have to say something about this. Althought I am very sorry to see him go I ultimatly back WIHs decision. I think fozzy said it best.

The one thing is that I understand that the evidence in this was enough for a ban to happen, I think most people just would have liked to see for themselves with demos. I understand that demos are not required, it just would have prevented this whole situation if it was really as bad as Fozzy said it was.

The biggest problem I have here is that although Nate was caught hacking, I would expect a bit more respect from WIHadmin about it. I know you arent the kind of guy to beat around the bush and try to keep people happy but sometimes, like this time, it really helps to not offend people and I think this thread could have been cut in half if WIHadmin had not treated Nate as such a criminal. Even though he was found guilty, he was still friends with alot of us and alot of us our a little upset about it. Again, fozzy said it best,


@Nate

I'm sorry to see you go. I've enjoyed many, many, many hours of gaming with you and getting to know you in TS. But things got to be the way they way they got to be. :(

Later Nate.

[Mad5cout]

Okay, I first must say that the multiple immature posts by "ace" gaming members is why I will never associate myself with you guys again. GL in CAL, you guys would be a lot better if you could be mature in your interactions with others.

Secondly, I will say that I know for a fact that NATE did not hack while I was playing (I have been on a 6 month break from CS). I don't believe NATE's personality is one that would lead him to hack. He loves the challenge of the game too much to do so. I think this is a case that is similar to when Saur first started playing here and he was simply not allowed to play on the servers because he was too good. Everyone thought he was hacking so they banned him.

You guys have to understand that when you play this game as competively as long as NATE has, that you start to develop a sixth sense about where people are going. Sometimes its not about what you can see but what you don't see. There are times when I know where a player is through visual confirmation and then lose him for a second. When I don't see him go a certain route I am checking, I KNOW he has gone to "X" location. As one advances on said location, you track your target reticle over in anticipation of the players location and it can sometimes seem like you are tracking through the wall. Because you know where that player will be when you turn the corner. Also, if you see someone run past an area and go behind a wall, if you have played long enough, you have memorized the pacing of the characters and can anticipate locations.

So, you were wondering, how do you tell the difference:

1. The "hacker" tracks a previously unseen target through a wall coming their direction to line up a shot. (keep in mind this check is only valid if the "hacker" is not close enough to hear the target moving with a GOOD set of headphones)

2. The hacker's target reticle changes directions to follow a character changing directions behind a wall. (keep in mind this check is only valid if the "hacker" is not close enough to hear the target moving with a GOOD set of headphones)

3. The "hacker" randomly looks through walls, to check locations of probable targets that are not close enough to be heard or possibly even across the map.

Just because someone anticipates player locations or checks unprobably locations does not mean they are a hacker, it means they are careful. Just because a person loosely tracks a previously seen OR HEARD target through a wall does not mean they are hacking. Just because a player can consistently 1 shot HS with multiple guns does not mean they are hacking.


To some, CS is a "sport" in that it is a competative activity. Consider that you are trying to play a pick up game against someone who has played approximately 6 seasons of competitve play. If I did that with someone who played basket ball, I am sure they would have scripted moves, and skills I did not possess.

I understand why the admins did what they did but for the record, I believe it is a mistake. Some of the admins should go to a CPL LA Hyperactive server for a few hours if for no other reason then to keep their judgement sober. The people there don't hack and a good portion would make Nate look like a noob (no offense Nate).

Hope to see you out in the ether someday again.

[Mad5cout]

I must admit the two accounts is a little scetchy and I never knew NATE had two. I do buy that it is plausible that one is his brothers but why if they are playing from the same location? Perhaps one has hacks on it and the other doesn't but I still find it hard to believe.

[Lord ALF]

for the record, i was the second admin and the one that banned his main (Nate) account.

whats done is done. i think everyone that has had anything to say has said it.

can we lock this thread please and start moving forward.

thank you,
-alf

[Kir Kanos]

Fozzy you said what i needed to hear, but i still wish you guys could undo what you did...

[CrockD]

When i saw the news of Nate's banning on the complaint forums I knew that it would open a can of worms, but seriously...wow. It took me over an hour to read through all of those posts.

I know this thread will be locked soon, but I did want to squeeze in my thoughts on this debate.

Concerning the actual evidence: I wasn't there, i didn't observe it so I'm not going to say I definitely know one way or the other.

What I have observed however is a servere lack of respect. It has been said in a couple posts here that people are surprised by the lack of respect wihadmin has shown towards Nate. How about the lack of respect shown to wihadmin, Alf and Fozzy. They have been flamed, accused of favoritism and told they are not qualified to do their jobs. In response their posts have been very courteous considering the many negative posts directed at them.

The owners of War is Hell pay their own hard earned cash to keep this place in existence, they selectively choose admins who can do the job, and they run a well moderated forum where they allow people to dissent. When have they EVER shown a lack of professionalism. You don't get several thousand members in 2 years by making arbitrary decisions. Based upon their history and the reputations of wihadmin, Alf and Fozzy I believe that they made the best most well informed decision that they could when they banned Nate. It is certainly okay to disagree by saying something along the lines "I understand your reasons, but I disagree because of <insert reason XYZ>, is it possible we can make it a 1 month ban and have him put on a watch list afterwards kind of thing.". To say that these admins are unqualified and biased is unprofessional, both from a WiH standpoint and from a "professional gamer" standpoint. You all know that if someone gets banned, defending them by saying "I know this guy he's in my clan or lives on my street therefore he is not a hacker" is not going to cut it. Make good reasoned arguments, not emotional badly constructed ones.

I will say that not everyone who posted from a dissenting standpoint has been unprofessional, some of you have been professional. The others however I will say this too: Show more respect to these guys when it comes to their decision making, they give up their time and in many cases their money to give you a well run server and even when you disagree with them they deserve your respect.

[Mad5cout]

Just because someone anticipates player locations or checks unprobably locations does not mean they are a hacker, it means they are careful. Just because a person loosely tracks a previously seen OR HEARD target through a wall does not mean they are hacking. Just because a player can consistently 1 shot HS with multiple guns does not mean they are hacking.


To some, CS is a "sport" in that it is a competative activity. Consider that you are trying to play a pick up game against someone who has played approximately 6 seasons of competitve play. If I did that with someone who played basket ball, I am sure they would have scripted moves, and skills I did not possess.

I understand why the admins did what they did but for the record, I believe it is a mistake. Some of the admins should go to a CPL LA Hyperactive server for a few hours if for no other reason then to keep their judgement sober. The people there don't hack and a good portion would make Nate look like a noob (no offense Nate).

Hope to see you out in the ether someday again.

I would like to qualify this statement after reading CrockD's post. I want you all to understand that I do not believe the admins here to be acting unprofessionally, unfairly, or without integrity. What I do believe is that sometimes mistakes have been made when banning people due to the admins lack of experience in the game. Now, I know that not everyone can play 6 hours a day for 3 years in a row, and I'm not expecting them to go out and compete in CAL. I'm just saying that there have been times I believe people have been banned with no conclusive evidence (ie: a SS or demo that clearly shows it) because the admins see players do something they find to be impossible or unnatural or beyond normal capabilities. Given the fact that most of them play exclusively at these servers, although the skill level is relatively high here, I think it makes them unaware of the level of play that can be achieved through competitve play experience.

I'm not sure if these statements made it better or worse. I guess the bottom line is that I feel the admins believe they have made an honest and informed judgement - I am not questioning their integrity. I do believe it is a mistake based on some lack of information/experience. That's why I suggest they go check out some of the CPL servers or pubs that are put up by CAL-M teams and such from time to time. It would be a sobering experience and I believe they might have some more perspective on Nate's ability as a player.

:dunno:

[Bauer]

Wow. Sorry to see this.

I have two accounts. I reformated my PC a while back and wanted to reintstall the game. However, I missing a disc or two. At the time I was connected to a wireless B network and was getting horrible packet loss so downloading the game was out of the question. Instead, I purchased it again and ended up assigning that copy to a new steam account. I rarely use the first one now. My cousins use it whenever they come over.

[marcusforealius]

Wow. Sorry to see this.

I have two accounts. I reformated my PC a while back and wanted to reintstall the game. However, I missing a disc or two. At the time I was connected to a wireless B network and was getting horrible packet loss so downloading the game was out of the question. Instead, I purchased it again and ended up assigning that copy to a new steam account. I rarely use the first one now. My cousins use it whenever they come over.

I can see someone having two account's but why would you play under your second name without anyone knowing who you are at a server where you are a regular?

[Bauer]

I can see someone having two account's but why would you play under your second name without anyone knowing who you are at a server where you are a regular?

rough day. didn't really want to bothered with clan-related issues. didn't really want to talk to anyone. I have those days all the time. I use the same steam account all the time. I do, however, change my alias sometimes, especially when I'm not into the game at the time. I'm an admin at several servers so I also change my name to avoid questions about bans/kicks and to catch people doing things they shouldn't be doing when they thought an admin wasn't on.

It depends. I could see him (or anyone) switching alias/accounts, though.

[wihadmin]

Seriously, to state that our admins are inexperienced bc they don't play in CAL or CPL servers? Surely you know that CAL has its share of hackers as well, right? They're not all good players.

Furthermore, if admining a pub CSS server for 2 years, day in and day out like these admins have done, is not having enough experience, then I think you're seriously not giving credit where credit is due. Our admins know very well when a hacker is tracking his target thru a wall. They know how to use audio cues or visual cues to predict where the target's going to be. They have to keep these things in mind while they observe bc that's their job as admin to do so. Not only are they trying to find hackers, but once they found someone they believed to be hacking, they have to find signs that might possibly explain how the suspect knows where his target is located. Our admins know damn well what is skill and what is a hack.

Instead of locking this thread, I'd like to direct everyone back to Filthy's question. How would you like to see our admin team handle situations where they believe that a player is hacking on the server? Please keep in mind that the same process will be applied to ALL players, regular or not.

[marcusforealius]

Instead of locking this thread, I'd like to direct everyone back to Filthy's question. How would you like to see our admin team handle situations where they believe that a player is hacking on the server? Please keep in mind that the same process will be applied to ALL players, regular or not.

Keep doing what your doing:thumbsup: If hackers dont like it or little kids that dont appreciate what everone here does, there are an assload of servers out there. I have played almost 95% of all my online CS:S here at WiH because it's a server where I can come for intelligent gaming and not having to listen to 15 year old kids using language that would get there asses beat if they had the sack to use it out in public

Keep up the good work Admins, thanks for the clean sandbox to play in:bow:

[Kev Kanos]

@ wihadmin.

I think this was handled as well as can be expected by anyone. I dont think the admins that banned him are inexperienced or biased against anyone. The only one thing that I believe would have helped this situation would have been demos to help put peoples minds at rest. recording demos isnt very hard and you guys do have an FTP server i think so that would mean it wouldnt be a big deal to post them either. Althought I understand why they werent made this time, I just think it would have helped alot of people get over it faster.

[[W33T] Canadian23]

a demo would have been a big help and pointing out the hacck thing it would stop questions as sometimes words are not enough proof.

[ATNryan]

I do agree that demo's would have made things a lot easier to swallow. As in the Heat situation where everyone got to see it blatently.

Also, I would like to apologize for stating that i thought some of the admins may have been inexperienced before I knew who they were. The two admins who have posted are well versed in everything about CS:S and I trust their opinions.

[jason bourne]

Personally, I never thought Nate would hack, or use aimbot, or anything. He always seemed legit when I was on CS with him, just a pretty good player with a lot of talent who gave it his best. Then again, I wasn't there when he was banned, and I didn't look at the demos. Still, I trust WiH and its admins to make the right decision.. I'm sure that they looked it over until they were absolutely 100% sure that Nate was hacking, whether they knew it was Nate or not. Simply because you have been a member for a long time doesn't mean you're allowed to cheat. I mean, for Christ's sake, its a video game. Why the hell would you be compelled to cheat? But if thats the case, I stand with WiH. GG Nate, fun times and you will be missed.

and @Nsane... could you please try to grow up? It seems to me that your arrogant little self is always bashing WiH and its admins. If you have a problem, by all means leave. Don't give the community shit just because you're immature. Spare the rest of us, would you. When over half the =TBS= clan was BANNED from War is Hell (Rune, Fireballs, camp david accords, and a bunch more that I don't even remember anymore), yeah I was angry. No, I was infuriated. I didn't play on WiH for a good month or so. But its a video game. I got over it. And you know what, War is Hell might just be better off without them, if they deserved to be banned for what they were banned for. And guess what, TBS is still going strong, still has a pretty good rep in the community, and I somehow managed to maintain my dignity. Now if I could do it for half my clan, I would hope that you could do the same for one person. The admins wouldn't ban anyone for alleged hacking unless they were absolutely sure of it. Nate's been banned. Live with it, life goes on. Try to handle it with respect and maturity, or leave.

GG Nate, Rizzo... it was fun while it lasted

[-LiT- Killer_B]

Well said Bournes...and TBS is defiantely still respected around here. I'm glad to get on here and read people like Kev and ATN and many more, who have shown maturatiy in thier posts even if they disagree. I can see where Demos would ease the pain of a lot of people, but as wihadmin stated if two cops see you shoot a guy in the face, your going down even if there is no movie or demo. You have to rely on the fact that the two officers, or 3 admins in this case, would be telling the truth.

[Slick Dragon]

Before getting into my long rant I'd first like to say thank you to WiHAdmin for allowing a debate as long and heated as this to continue on your forums and throughout the community. This issue has affected many of us and while we may not all be able to restrain ourselves from voicing our opinions, for the most part we respect the time and money you and others have donated to this great community.

I must agree that there has been a great show of immaturity in this thread, by many people I didn't expect to see it from and to that all I can say is that I fervently hope that such a situation does not occur again to warrant such harsh name-calling and finger-pointing.

For several years I've enjoyed playing here with my own friends and with those I've met, I believe that I've been around here a lot longer than people remember, though I was never a verbally active member of the community. However, over the last two years I have enjoyed playing here less and less as word of mistreatment and abuses by those with admin rights have spread - things of which I have even been a victim of on occasion. If I may digress for a moment I believe that the particular point in time when admins started getting a little "ban crazy" was when there was that influx of "hackers" on the server - of new, unrecognized, drop-ins who would use illegal methods to enhance their skills. I even posted here (http://www.warishellgaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13359) about one of them because I had noticed so many and didn't want their appearance to degrade the communities enjoyment. However, back to the main point: I still do my best to respect the admins - I treat them the same as I treat any other player, with the respect that they deserve - but I must admit that I have lost my trust of some of the individuals here and find the replies like "3 admins agreed on it so stfu, noob" a bit aggravating. I realize that we can't hold everyone to a certain set of credentials and can only hold people to do the best that they can, but how does the community know that this is the best that you can do? How do we know that you honestly have our best interests in mind when people say things like "If we lose the community over a ban, so be it." (http://www.warishellgaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14098&page=4) Are things like that supposed to bolster our respect for anyone?


I know this place is yours and you guys make the calls, but for us as fellow players of WIH I think it would be settle in our minds if you would try everything in your power to prove or disprove his act of hacking.
I cannot agree with Kir Kanos more, as this is such a heavily disputed argument a well-documented presentation of the facts and the viewpoints would be most beneficial.


I understand why the admins did what they did but for the record, I believe it is a mistake. Some of the admins should go to a CPL LA Hyperactive server for a few hours if for no other reason then to keep their judgement sober. The people there don't hack and a good portion would make Nate look like a noob (no offense Nate).
I also agree with what Mad5cout said, a little bit of "sight-seeing" on professional or "serious" pubs would benefit the admins and my confidence in their views.

As far as Nate as a player and a friend, I believe that he not only has the balls, but is also has a character which would require him to state whether or not he was hacking as an ill-conceived jest. If he did something wrong I'm sure he would have tried to make up for it by now and since he has not then I firmly believe that he is telling the truth when he says he was not hacking. It is possible that I am wrong and that he's a lying son of a bitch, but I'm usually a pretty good judge of character and he doesn't seem the type to do something like this to a community he has spent so much time with. I have not seen the "evidence" that the three admins have, nor did I personally spectate him on that night, however I have heard a lot of weird shit come from those on the WiH TS along the lines of "omg, hacker" and other slanderous comments without merit and solely opinion based. To say that those who have been"... admining a pub CSS server for 2 years, day in and day out ..." is as you put "enough experience" then I think you're mistaken. If becoming good at something meant that all you had to do was repeat an activity or watch said activity "everyday" for 2 years then I think there would be a fair amount of pornstars and professional photographers on these forums (:flipoff:). I think to justify experience one should be well versed in how the game works; in its performance differences on different pieces of hardware; and on social behavior, both of individuals and groups, so that the person would be able to accurately and confidently know exactly what is going on. I am in no way saying that there should be a written exam for being an administrator, but there should be enough common sense used to illustrate that someone is not playing favorites (which I know has been done in this community before).

I hope that after this everyone can still get along and that there isn't a major divide within the community about some of the topics I have discussed above. As well, I hope that we can all learn from this and work towards strengthening this community.

-----

In regards to some of the points thrown at nsane and some other random remarks to others, I'd just like to add these five statements:

1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nsane http://www.warishellgaming.com/forums/disturbed/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.warishellgaming.com/forums/showthread.php?p=175652#post175652)
1) heat has not recently been on our CAL team, if at all, this would have been 2 or 3 seasons ago when even YOU GUYS thought or he was clean

The point here is that you had no clue either.
Heat has never been anywhere near <TI> or <ace>. I personally never ... "enjoyed his company" on WiH and have not ever said more than a friendly "hello" to him if I'm trying to populate WiH and he happens to join. In fact, I was one of the first to mention that he should not be eligible to play in the <ace> tournament if he became ineligible for CAL:


If he is banned from CAL matches then he obviously should not be allowed in our tournament. - From the <ace> Admin Forum. (If an admin is interested in seeing this there I willl grant you temporary access to it to see the thread in its entirety.)
As well, I found wihadmin's retort - as that is all that it can be called - brash and inconsiderate.

---

2.

Quote:
3) I said that is what it looked like to me, I never did say there you WERE out to get him, I only said what I have seen
Now you're just backpaddling and playing semantics. You said
Quote:
It seems that they had it out for him.
Actually, the way that's worded is correct; if you want to play semantics then meet me outside.

---

3.

a sport...come on thats absurd. Sports are played by athletes...its like saying poker is a "sport."
The "C" in CAL (http://www.caleague.com/) actually stands for "cyberathlete," and not to take sides here or make fun of people who legitimately consider it a sport, but it's just like golf. There are those who say it's a sport and there are those who say it can't possibly be a sport, it's just a fun game. I personally don't believe it is worth it to efface one's beliefs simply because they are different from yours, but perhaps being an ignorant fool warrants that kind of behavior.

---

4.

Okay, I first must say that the multiple immature posts by "ace" gaming members is why I will never associate myself with you guys again. GL in CAL, you guys would be a lot better if you could be mature in your interactions with others.
I like how quickly people turn to personal attacks and try to throw in some factual evidence to support their opinion, however I must say that Mad5cout was in Tactical Initiative twice, and as a founder and leader was a pretty good guy, but to say that you will never associate yourself with us again in that manner ... it leads one to believe that you were actually a part of ace when you weren't. You didn't even acknowledge me online until I told you I had previously been <TI> Slick Dragon and had assisted in forming the clan <ace>. But thanks for adding to the rampant name-calling, the world is a better place for it. And thanks for the advice in CAL, I'm sure we'll take it with as much salt as you would if we said it to you. I personally think you're still angsty over Pillsbury, but don't involve others that you know have nothing to do with your conniption fits. You've proven your sig so true.

---

5.
For the record, I've had two accounts, one of which went to n194co so that he could play and I simply got another one - it's that easy. Since then n1 has lost that account and gotten another (purchased via my credit card) so if anyone would like to accuse me of being a l33t h4x0r then I'll take it as a compliment.

-----

If you've read this far thanks for hearing me out, I hope WiH becomes a stronger community because of this, regardless of my place in it. If anyone has any personal comments or questions in general feel free to contact me in the most convenient location for you.

- Slicky

[Prowler130]

I also agree with what Mad5cout said, a little bit of "sight-seeing" on professional or "serious" pubs would benefit the admins and my confidence in their views.


I certainly dont want to start any trouble. In fact, I wanted to avoid posting in here all together seeing as how I exist on both sides of this argument.

As leader of PNP, I am sad to see nate and riz go... I have played with both (especially nate) for a long long time. But as far as this incident is concerned, there is nothing I can say or do to help since I was not there.

However, from the admin part of me, I kind of take offense to some of the above statement. I don't know where the assumption came from that the only thing the WiH cs admin team does is play on wih. That is where you see us of course, but that doesnt mean thats the only time we play. I for one would like to think I know the game mechanics well. I know the software like the back of my hand. I know the physics and the different situations in which lag would play a part. I know the difference a particular tick rate can make on a server. I have played both a ton of pub cs (on many servers, lots of them im a regular on during off-peak wih hours) and Ive also played a lot of competitive cs. The fact is, you dont know the history of each admin, and that definitely doesnt give you the right to talk about how experienced each one of us is. I can assure you each admin was selected for a reason.

As for new admins that come in and are not as "experienced" as you may like, I can assure you, I do MY personal best to walk them through picking out peculiar things using these types of situations (especially Heat's, since that was the most recent). I like to think I make a difference in the sense that even if im not there to point something out, the other admins and the owners picked up things they didnt know when I am there to point things out.

That being said, the argument other argument so brashly stated was that of "three admins saw it so stfu noob". Id like to inform everyone here that this is a counter-measure put in place by the owners. Its sort of a checks-and-balances so no single admin has to much control. Especially in cs, unless it is completely blatant, three senior admins must agree unanimously on a ban. That by all means isnt the whole policy, but it should be enough to show you that we arent "ban-happy".

And on the "ban-happy" issue, none of us enjoy banning anyone unless they deserve it. I can vouch that Alf did not enjoy banning nate... nate has been a part of pnp for a long time and has been a friend to us. But we as admins must remain objective and must not have any bias.

If you need anything else cleared up, please, by all means, let me know

[JuicedYeti]

glad nate was banned.
that is all from someone who payed here a long time ago.,

[Gruthar]

This is saddening... I'll miss Nate. I, too, don't like seeing regs banned - god knows we could use more good CS:S players on WiH. I'm not sure who the third admin was, but I at least trust Alf and Fozzy - I've been here long enough to know they don't ban without good cause. In the past, when there's been an unjust ban - such as when all of nX was banned (looong time ago) - it's been rectified. If this really was a misunderstanding and Nate was doing exceptionally well, you're not helping his case by making inflammatory posts. I don't wish to offend anyone... but although admins are certainly not infallible by any stretch of the imagination, three senior admins unanimously agreeing to ban him doesn't leave much room for doubt. I won't go so far as to say this proves Nate was cheating, but admittedly if it was anyone other than Nate or a WiH reg, I wouldn't even think twice about it.

I'd also like to bust a couple of myths. First off, having a $10,000 super-tweaked state-of-the-art liquid hydrogen cooled octuple-GPU octuple-cored computer with a billion DPI mouse doesn't make you a better player, and doesn't make you any more capable of BS. A crappy system can inhibit you, but you'll play just as well on a decent system as on the top-of-the-line ultra-money rig. Attributing impossible plays to fancy hardware is absurd.

My second point is that Nate is not a CPL player. He's CAL:O. Despite all the general condescension from competitive players, they aren't that much better in terms of the skills you'd use in a pub. Perhaps the only advantage they have over the regular pubber are things like timing and getting the angles... if you watched a CPL player, you would notice they play more strategically (positioning, maneuvering, etc) instead of trying to outshoot the other player. Their gameplay strategy doesn't wholly consist of impossible shots like a cheater's does. You can easily distinguish a cheater from a player who knows how to be at the right place at the right time (like Saur, damn him! :D). The role aiming and reflexes play in a team-based competitive environment is relatively minor - strats, teamwork, situational awareness, and communication are much more vital. These do not transfer over into pubs well, if at all. In short, I don't think you'd gain any insights into differentiating a cheater from a legitimate player by watching a CPL player pub - unless all you saw was the score. Pubs and team competitions are very different animals. While a CPL player will naturally do better than Joe Schmoe, a pub is a pub. A good pubber could still kick a CPL player's butt on a pub. But again, even if there was a comparison, Nate is not a CPL player.

My final point is on the alleged 'ban happiness' of the admins. Every single admin worth his salt gets accused of that. Same thing with the favoritism and the abuse of power. In every respectable server, whether it be a forum, chat, or game, I hear the same tired accusations from those who've been reprimanded. Both in TC and TBS, I've been in a clan that got on the wrong side of WiH, yet I can't deny that there was justification. I've seen firsthand that WiH is not tolerant of asshats. Now, I can't recall ever seeing Nate openly get in argument with an admin, nor the admins expressing distaste with him before. Maybe I don't play enough. But it's hard for me to believe they were out to get him - Nate is not an asshat, to my knowledge. Neither was Eject - it's not Nate's good nature that is in question here. As Eject showed, good natured people can still cheat.

I wish there were a way for Nate to prove his innocence or be exonerated. As I see it now, it's his word against the word of three respected admins who have nothing to gain by banning him. They must've seen something. I think it would help if Nate himself spoke up instead of having everyone do the talking for him.

[Persephone]

I won't even lie and say I read this thread. It's way too long. But I still say it makes me really sad when I see people I used to play with on a daily basis found hacking. If you have any decency..and if you like people in this community at all. If you have any respect for the people in it, if not for the community itself..if you enjoy playing here and consider people here your friends and family..Just seriously..if anyone else here hacks, i'd cut it out while you're still ahead before you get caught. No one here cares if you're good or bad. The point is to have fun here.

[jason bourne]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ITS A VIDEO GAME.



The point is to have fun here.

^there you go

[Lord ALF]

i'm suddenly hungry for KFC.

-alf

[FozzyBear]

No one here cares if you're good or bad. The point is to have fun here.


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, ITS A VIDEO GAME.




^there you go

Well said .............



It's a game. I play it for the company, and friendships I've devolped. I may cuss and spit a little when I get killed, but I really play for the interaction I get in-game and on Teamspeak.

Nothing pisses me off more than when I get killed by a regular.....BUT nothing makes me happier than when I kill that regular back. :D


It is a game. Sometimes you lose, and sometimes you win. :dunno: It all evens out in the end.

If you have never played with TeamSpeak, then you are missing out on the BIGGEST part of the game................getting to know people.

I'm pretty sure there are others out there that are using hacks.............. IN FACT a couple are under extreme scruitny right now............ NOW would be a good time to just play for the fun of it, or to find a new server home. :slap: Regulars, thought to be cheating, are being recorded on a regular basis.... This is to avoid such a ruckus like this banning...(to provide the community PROOF, so that there is not so much anger..... ) Now keep in mind, that this is not a REQUIREMENT. If we see a reg OBVIOUSLY hacking he is gone.....no discussion, and no recourse. But, we understand and appreciate the support of the regular players.


Now, I just want to comment on something SlickDragon said.....

From my post he quoted
If we lose the community over a ban, so be it. I wanted to put into context of what I meant.....sorry I was not clear when I first wrote it. I'll highlight the important parts.

This was not meant to be a holier than thou clip. It was meant to show how much I and the other admins had to deal with banning someone we have played with MANY, MANY, MANY times.

It sucks. I know it sucks. I'm not happy about doing it.... but that is our job here.


I'm sorry we caught your friend. I'm sorry we caught your clanmate. I'm sorry we caught MY friend, and someone I have enjoyed playing CS:S with for A LONG TIME. So to all of you that thinks this was an easy decision :upyours: We CAN NOT play favorites as the admins here.

There was a SEVERAL page discussion on this ban in the admin forum. We do not take banning of regulars lightly. We value our community members, but we value the integrity of WIH more.

So to put it as simple as possible. If we lose the community over a ban, so be it. We will not lose sleep over it. We did what we felt was right by the community. You don't have to agree with the ban, but just know it was a legit ban.




If you are not happy about our banning, then know WE WEREN'T HAPPY EITHER

there are some of you who seem to think we like to ban people........ Now don't get me wrong, I get a little happiness from banning the TK'rs/Racists/and general a$$hats... but I don't get any happiness from banning someone I have played with for HOURS upon HOURS.



I just want to end with what I ended my last post with.....


You don't have to agree with the ban, but just know it was a legit ban.

Foz

[Tykwer]

every time i killed nate he would yell "BULL S*$@" or "HACKER!" in TS :lol:

[ATNryan]

every time i killed nate he would yell "BULL S*$@" or "HACKER!" in TS :lol:

Something most hackers would never say....

[FiLTHY_SNiPER]

I think we should drop the issue.

Nothing is going to change.

[Slick Dragon]

I think we should drop the issue.

Nothing is going to change.

Does that mean we shouldn't try to voice our opinion?

[bman65]

Does that mean we shouldn't try to voice our opinion?


I think what filthy meant, was that unless anyone has anything relavent to this direct incident we should close this thread. And since not much is left that has not been said, I would agree.

[CrockD]

I think what filthy meant, was that unless anyone has anything relavent to this direct incident we should close this thread. And since not much is left that has not been said, I would agree.

I would agree also. Wihadmin asked us for our suggestions as to what they could do to improve the process in his last post and unless someone has suggestions to that effect I think there's little point in beating a dead horse.

[Real Nate]

well u guys have it wrong it wasn't a legit ban iam not a hacker i was miss jugded for my banned so what if i was using a different account, so i got back on with my other account examing who i was, well it seems that if your name is on the watch list an your doing very good, u get banned for that shit that bull shit, so your pritty much saying if your name is on the watch list then your a hacker, if so then there something wrong there seens a reg that has been playing for over two years nothing i did wrong just get banned u guys didnt even have enought edvices that show me hacking a few SS that all and others saying im hacking, u guys need to look it over again..

nate

[wihadmin]

Wondering why this nate is posting under a new forum account instead of the other one that posted in the Complaints section... We didn't ban that account.

[FozzyBear]

I started to lock this a few hours ago, I'm glad I didn't.


I've wanted NATE to give his opinion. I'm hoping this is the "Real Nate"

I want to start off by saying this ban is not going to change by anything in this thread. This a thread for people to voice their opinions.


@Nate I hope you have read through all the posts, including mine.



I could care less if you have 2 accounts.

I'm sorry we didn't get a demo. (as far as we were concerned it was a pub player, not that regs should get special treatment......)

The "watch list" is just that... a watch list. It doesn't mean you are guilty, just someone who warrants some extra attention. BTW you have been on the watch list for a long time, not that it matters. But I figured I'd throw it out there.

The SS were done to basically let the player know he was being watched, not for conclusive evidence. As has already been stated, the SS are just a tool and they are not conclusive. A demo, or actually watching the player, is the MOST accurate way to catch a hacker.



I don't think you feel this way, but just to clarify....you were not singled out. We felt the player we were watching was obviously hacking. And we were EXTREMELY surprised to find out it was YOU we were watching.


Reasons we suspect a hacker: Obscene amount of HS's, speed hack, Tracking players without any in-game clues, and a few others.


I think the accuracy of your shots could have been to skill.......

I don't think you had a speed hack.

You DID track players without the use of any In-game clues.



As for tracking. 1v1 so your teammates could not have spotted them for you. They were walking so you couldn't have heard them. They didn't reload, so you didn't hear them. It was not an obvious spot, or even a non-obvious spot, for you to go directly to. (and there were MULTIPLE times you/alias account were witnessed..the last time was the most definitive. Which is when your alias was banned)

Your main account was banned since you said you were also the previous ban.

[FozzyBear]

JUST so everyone is clear.

It is fine to voice your opinion. and if you HAVE ALREADY DONE SO, little snide comments are NOT helping the situation. (this is directed at the ONLY person to have a post deleted) Don't get this thread locked. Keep it constructive.

If you don't like the way we run the server, don't play. If you don't like the way we run the forums, don't post.

I feel I am a pretty easy going guy, and I don't get upset easily. But just because you can hide behind a computer DOES NOT give you license to be a dick.

I understand some of you don't like the ban. That is fine, you don't have to. But you do have to play (and post) like an adult, even if you are not.

Keep posts respectable. Plain and simple. Just know that sometimes people just "agree to disagree" .

[Real Nate]

fozzybear:
I think the accuracy of your shots could have been to skill.......

I don't think you had a speed hack.

You DID track players without the use of any In-game clues.

so what your say is that im using somekind of wall hack, first off it was in the gun game server on a very close map some u can hear people when they were running and thats what they were doing so i sit back behind walls and jump out and a headshot, very lucky, it not like u or other players have those night as well because everyone does,andi was also using a headset it can hear people when they studer walk and run as well too, man guys just believe me what im saying is ture im not no hacker, from what your saying im NOt hacking, and i was using the in game clues to sight emenys when u see them it apairs on your map for about 5 seconds so it is very easy to spot them out or were they are. that ban was wrong, i can see that u ban me because of diiferent name and account but i jumped on ts and the game again to tell them it was me, u should un ban me because of lack of edvances that u havent show, because of 3 admins for what think, i hear they say it all the time even if there joking or not.

nate

[FozzyBear]

I don't believe this is the real Nate. (I know which server it was on, and which map...... I believe this person posting does not know the details.)

I will not waste my time posting replies to this user's account any more. If Nate would like to talk anymore, please post under the correct account.

:slap:

[-LiT- Killer_B]

I don't believe this is the real Nate. (I know which server it was on, and which map...... I believe this person posting does not know the details.)

I will not waste my time posting replies to this user's account any more. If Nate would like to talk anymore, please post under the correct account.

:slap:

Agreed...Nate talks with more maturity and less spelling errors from what I've seen. This looks like a 12 year old poster.

[bo_67]

wow talk about the god recruiting thread being childish when we had a disagreement..........this is way worse. sounds like kids arguing at hs.....


I think the WIH admin team did the best job to its abilities and you shouldnt argue with the admin.........even if they might possibly be wrong they TOOK every step towards the investigation with what is available.....

MAY I SUGGEST A COMPRIMISE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

IF YOU LIKE NATE AND PLAYING WITH HIM HOWBOUT SUGGEsTING A 60 TO 90 DAY BAN INSTEAD OF PERMANET BAN...........
it would give him and [wih]time to either lose the hack or cool off!!!!

WIH rocks good job guys:thumbsup:

[wihadmin]

I'm goingto lock this thread bc there's no more use for it. Everyone pretty much said everything that they wanted to say.

If Nate wanted to say smething, he can post in the original ban thread that he started in the Complaints forum. This "Real Nate" is probably Rizzo (judging from all the mispellings and other clues) under a new alias. Nate's gone. There's no bringing a hacker back. Period.