Non-DWP issues from last update.

[CrockD]

:rant:

Note: This thread will contain NO references to DWP. I wish to complain about other things Valve may or may not have done.

Okay, maybe it's just me, in fact it probably is me but i'll mention it anyway. Has Valve changed the values and accuracy of some weapons with the last update. The Shotgun seems overwhelmingly powerful!!!! I thought it was just me when Gorro was absolutely lighting me up with it last night, but again today multiple players kept giving me 1 shot 115pts of damage 5-6 times in a row and NONE of them were headshots!!!!! I must have been killed over 25 times with a shotgun in the last 2 days and about 18-20 of those were 1 hit non-headshot kills. In a similar manner I have also noticed that the knife has been doing 130 points of damage with one hit in a lot of cases. Blessed would be able to enlighten me on this, but I have found that I have given out 130 points on 1 hit with a knife on several occasions without a player having their back to me. The game just feels so much weirder after the last update and for some reason I know longer receive a synopsis of changes when Valve makes an update so I can't tell what they did and didn't change. ARRGHHHH!!!!!!!

:rant:

[Blis]

Note: This thread will contain NO references to DWP.

I'd call that a reference :biggrinjester:

I havent been playing much recently so i cant comment to most of the things you mentioned.

As for the knife thing though,you can knife someone to the face.If they are standing infront of you and to the side,facing the direction your knife will com from,then your knife goes in their face and you get a one hit kill(has to be a right click from my experience)

[FozzyBear]

The shotty has been waaaay powerful for a while.... Just ask "D".

I just think you are noticing it more since more people are branching out their gun purchases (Due to "that which must not be named") :D

[CrockD]

You may be right about seeing it more Fozzy. As for D, I remember him well, I used to tell him I was his evil little Brother, but the thing I remember about him is that he got a ton of headshots. I've got people just hammering me for 100+ without hitting my head. It's like a short-medium range awp.

[CrockD]

I'd call that a reference :biggrinjester:
I started the thread you pedant! I'm allowed to mention it once!!!!:lol:

[APOC]

I will agree they screwed with the guns in the update....The shotty is my new favorite long range weapon...Not sure what happened but it went from a horrible gun for me to a very good one lost of 1 shot kills from a very long range.

APOC

[Gruthar]

I dunno, I haven't noticed a difference. The pump shotty has always been capable of 1-shot-kills w/o a headshot, provided all the shot hits the player. I'll hop on the you-notice-it-more-because-it's-being-used-more bandwagon.

[CrockD]

No more DWP talk...please, if it's in this thread it must not contain any talk of DWP from this point forth!:wallbash:

[wihadmin]

cleaned up.

Folks - please have some respect for the OP asking not to talk about DWP. If you need remedial English, I will point you in the right direction.

[sliverstorm]

For those curious: http://keepitreal.nuclearfallout.net/Weapons_Guide/

------

M3 (12G shells)

Accuracy: * 1.0
Control: ********** 10.0
Damage: ******** 8.0
··Base Damage Head: 172
··Base Damage Chest/Arms: 43
··Base Damage Stomach: 53
··Base Damage Legs: 31
Range: * 1.0
··35% Power Loss at 10 meters
Rate of Fire: ** 2.0
··Fire-Rate: 0.8 rps
Armor Penetration: 25%
··Texture Penetration: N/A
Ammo Capacity: 8 shells (9 pellets each)
Weight (Empty): 3.5 Kg
Cost: $1700

The Pump Shotgun is one of only two guns in the game that can kill with one shot to the torso. Each shell contains 9 pellets, which individually do 43 damage to an unarmored torso at close range. The accuracy of the pellets decreases with range, as does the damage they deliver by a considerable amount. This weapon has perfect control, which means it is 100% accurate while running, jumping, or even standing on a ladder. The slow rate of fire means that in solo engagement you REALLY need to kill your enemy with the first 2 shots or you’re toast. As a support weapon, it is excellent for engaging multiple targets at short to medium ranges. Use the control this weapon provides to your advantage, and remember to avoid long range encounters.

-----

So 43*.25 = 10.3 damage to an armored torso, = roughly 90-93 damage w/ 1 shot if you're wearing armor and all the pellets hit the torso. Furthermore, if you're more than 10(!) meters away, you lose 35% of that damage, so now it's about 60 damage if all the pellets hit, which they most definitely will not. So yeah, it looks like without armor this gun will rip you apart at close range, and if even one pellet hits you in the head the damage just goes nuts (btw I am in no way endorsing the veracity of the numbers on that guide [for instance base damage to unarmored head for ONE PELLET looks a bit nuts- but who knows?]. It was the best one I could find, so I figured I'd use it. I'd love to do some of those experiments myself).

[CrockD]

For those curious: http://keepitreal.nuclearfallout.net/Weapons_Guide/

------

M3 (12G shells)

Accuracy: * 1.0
Control: ********** 10.0
Damage: ******** 8.0
··Base Damage Head: 172
··Base Damage Chest/Arms: 43
··Base Damage Stomach: 53
··Base Damage Legs: 31
Range: * 1.0
··35% Power Loss at 10 meters
Rate of Fire: ** 2.0
··Fire-Rate: 0.8 rps
Armor Penetration: 25%
··Texture Penetration: N/A
Ammo Capacity: 8 shells (9 pellets each)
Weight (Empty): 3.5 Kg
Cost: $1700

The Pump Shotgun is one of only two guns in the game that can kill with one shot to the torso. Each shell contains 9 pellets, which individually do 43 damage to an unarmored torso at close range. The accuracy of the pellets decreases with range, as does the damage they deliver by a considerable amount. This weapon has perfect control, which means it is 100% accurate while running, jumping, or even standing on a ladder. The slow rate of fire means that in solo engagement you REALLY need to kill your enemy with the first 2 shots or you’re toast. As a support weapon, it is excellent for engaging multiple targets at short to medium ranges. Use the control this weapon provides to your advantage, and remember to avoid long range encounters.

-----

So 43*.25 = 10.3 damage to an armored torso, = roughly 90-93 damage w/ 1 shot if you're wearing armor and all the pellets hit the torso. Furthermore, if you're more than 10(!) meters away, you lose 35% of that damage, so now it's about 60 damage if all the pellets hit, which they most definitely will not. So yeah, it looks like without armor this gun will rip you apart at close range, and if even one pellet hits you in the head the damage just goes nuts (btw I am in no way endorsing the veracity of the numbers on that guide [for instance base damage to unarmored head for ONE PELLET looks a bit nuts- but who knows?]. It was the best one I could find, so I figured I'd use it. I'd love to do some of those experiments myself).

Great Post!:thumbsup:

I guess the reason I am noticing it then is because I don't buy armor as often since the update. I'll have to check that place out some more when I have some time.

[Lord ALF]

excellent post guys! :thumbsup:

-alf

[sliverstorm]

I read into the site further, and I want to add to my prior post for fear of confusing people.

Base damage, as listed on the site, is damage done at 0 meters. Thus, if one were to fire at point-blank range, that is the damage which would occur. From there, an algorithm takes over to subtract damage over distance. It is not as though the shotgun does full damage from less than 10 meters away. Rather, by the time one reaches 10 meters, the shotgun has lost 35% of its base damage. so the damage dealt in-between is variable.

Furthermore, Twanger claims on his site that the damage reductions are NOT all linear, but differ dramatically from weapon to weapon- he was just doing his best to simplify it.

Just in case, I ran some tests to verify Twanger's numbers. Because I have no friends, I had to make do with bots who were wielding knives. I used the awp because it was a 1 kill weapon, so the full damage would always be displayed in console. 14 out of my 15 kills were around 112-114 damage at point blank in the chest, and 1 accidental headshot was 448 and an accidental stomach shot was 139- those numbers match up nicely with his 115, 459, and 141, respectively. Thus, I trust the guide on most weapons.

However, I'm still REALLY skeptical of the shotgun numbers. 172 to the head for ONE pellet? That's pretty goddamn nuts. I'm about to go test some stuff with Slash, so we'll see. Expect yet another post in about 30 mins or so (if someone can pry him away from Guitar Hero, that is). Here's another few tidbits from the site, which I found to be very informative:


You don’t talk about silencers in your guide; what is the effect of silencing the USP or M4A1?

-I didn’t include the effects of silencers in my guide because it doesn’t change much about the weapon, and where it does make changes, the effect is rather complex, and is different for each of the weapons. The silencer on the USP decreases base head damage from 134 to 118, and decreases accuracy by a small amount. The silencer on the M4A1, however, does NOT decrease base damage. It increases power loss at range by a slight amount (from 11% at 50m to 18% at 50m) and decreases accuracy AND weapon recoil slightly.


The thickness of the texture does not affect how much damage is delivered.

EDIT: also, I threw some armorless bots up and shot at them and holy freaking god, CrockD was so right. The shotgun murders people without armor. That's not really an 'empirical study,' but I watch bots die even when some of my pellets missed (not that I missed bots wielding knives at point blank... *runs away*)

[sliverstorm]

ALRIGHT, so after Slash was done being an awesome guy and helping me out with this stuff, I learned some interesting stuff.

Here is the definitive truth about shotguns:

UNARMORED:
1 pellet to the CHEST at point blank deals 21 damage.

1 pellet to the HEAD at point blank deals 87 damage.

In console, when killed by a shotgun blast to the CHEST, damage is reported as 105. This means that 5 pellets to the chest (21*5 = 105) will kill a player, allowing someone to miss with 4 pellets and still get a 1 hit KO on an unarmored target.

In console, when killed by a shotgun blast to the HEAD, damage is reported as 174. This means that 2 pellets to the head (87*2 = 174) will kill a player, allowing someone to miss with 7(!) pellets and still get a 1 hit KO on an unarmored target.

ARMORED:
1 pellet to the CHEST at point blank (against a fully armored opponent) deals 10 damage and removes 4 armor [note: armor removal not tested enough to be confident].

1 pellet to the HEAD at point blank (against a fully armored opponent) deals 43 damage and removes some number I can't read because my handwriting sucks... 22 armor, I think [note: armor removal not tested enough to be confident, and my handwriting makes baby jesus purchase me handwriting lessons].

when hit with a shotgun blast to the CHEST, damage is reported as 90. This makes sense, as 9 pellets multiplied by 10 damage equals 90. I forgot to record the armor loss, because at the time I wasn't planning on examining it.

In console, when killed by a shotgun blast to the HEAD, damage is reported as 129. This means that 3 pellets to the head (43*3 = 129) will kill a player, allowing someone to miss with 6(!) pellets and still get a 1 hit KO on an ARMORED target, which is very good news for all you shotgun enthusiasts.

NOW, if we compare these number to the numbers given by Twanger's guide, we see something very interesting. The armored numbers match up perfectly, while the unarmored numbers in his guide are roughly twice the numbers that I got while testing.

So, what this means is that some time between February 07, 2006 (the last time the shotgun page was updated) and now, Valve decided that the shotgun was unbalanced (likely against unarmored targets), and altered it so that it had 1/2 the base damage, but was twice as effective (50% piercing) against armor. How cool is that!?

Now, this was not experimented on by me, but unofficially Slash and I noticed that the damage of the shotgun was not affected at ALL by a few meters, say 1 or 2. I'd be interested to see how far the shotgun damage stays constant (be it only that 1 or 2 meters, or all 9.9999 meters), because if it's a reasonable distance, this information could actually make a half-decent case in favor of buying a shotgun second round vs. the MP5 (I'm talking about in a match, of course). It's a weak argument, but if a person is watching an area which generally requires a large amount of mobility, they might be advantaged by the shotgun, which has perfect control. Probably not, but it's worth thinking about having one shottie up as support for 2 man defenses.

EDIT: oh, and the moral of the story is that while the info on that site was probably good for a time, by now there are probably a good number of things which are outdated.

[Prowler130]

this should totally be split and put into the guide section, great posts sliverstorm :thumbsup:

[CrockD]

this should totally be split and put into the guide section, great posts sliverstorm :thumbsup:

I was thinking the same thing. I read this when I got into work this morning, but didn't post back because I wanted my reply to do it justice. Given that I am still super-busy I'll just say, wow great research SilverStorm! If I still had the ability to +rep you I would.

Thanks for all the good info!:thumbsup: