Recording

[jason bourne]

I've asked this before, and I'm going to ask again. :biggrinjester:


In regards to inexpensive and decent recording equipment, does anyone have input? I'm in high school, so I can't afford crazy $1700 shtuff. My band plays both acoustic and electric rock, and up till now we've used Samson C01 Condenser Mic, which is a USB mic and plugs right into the comp. We use Audacity to edit it afterwards. Yeah, its primitive, simple, and lackluster, but it worked rather well... until my buddy spilled water all over it.

So any suggestions? I'm not looking for another USB mic- I'd like some actual recording equipment- but I guess I'd be willing to just purchase another USB mic like I had before if I can't afford an upgrade. Please remember that I'm completely clueless in this subject, so explain thoroughly please :D .


Any input would be appreciated! :thumbsup:

[loopcycle]

how much money do you have to spend?

[sir_digalot]

okay try these things, i am always on the lookout for inexpensive recording stuff..

first of all you may well do better having a few more mics... the problem is they tend to cost a twat load of cash...

also you will do good with a mixer, since you have at most 10 channels (5 instrument 5 vocal)

not knowing you exact budget i will try to gove you a wode range of options, be warned though, for a semi decent sounding setup you maybe looking at about $1000 for the entire rig...

here goes...

mixer

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_alesis_multimix_8usb_mixer_with_usb_and_dsp?fu ll_sku=102922762

persoanlly have not used it but the Spdif 44.1 (digital) output direct to soundcard looks good...

on the soundcard front get a 24 bit one you can pick up an audigy 4 of ebay for like $30 it makes a world of difference.

i am a fan of behrenger stuff too and am more of atraditionalist when it comes to mixers.. try these in order of size

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_behringer_eurorack_ub1202_mixer?full_sku=63123 6

12 input 4 mic lines..


http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_behringer_eurorack_ub1222fxpro_mixer?full_sku= 631229

16 input 6 mic lines + 24 bit fx processor



http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_behringer_eurorack_ub2222fxpro_mixer?full_sku= 101959849

12 input 8 mic FX.....

and of course

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_behringer_eurorack_ub2442fxpro_mixer?full_sku= 101959856

this is the big daddy of the lot but it will allow you to pretty much have 5 vox, lead guit, rythm guit, and a couple of drum channels mixed seperatly.... the ideal solution... since most computers only accept stereo in this isa good bet for an excellent sounding mix.... though can take a little setting up.


now because you are using a proper mixing solution, you can also use a proper micorphone solution

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_mxl_mxl_990mxl_991_recording_microphone_packag e?full_sku=102543741

these are expensive BUT THEY ROCK! seriously i used to use a couple of these for recording for the chicago blues archive, they are sweet for the price and a bonus you get 2! problem is they require phantom power... but most mixers provide this.

you can use these for general band sound or more specifically for just vocals (lead usually) or for any instrument you wish to sound good... if you can afford 2 sets then you can use them for lead rythm snare(or bass they have a large diaphram) and cymbals imo well worth the $100

dynamic mics i love shure but they are expensive.. the sm58a or the beta 57 have so much headroom for a dynamic mic i was very suprised...

but for you a better deal would be our old freind behringer

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_behringer_xm8500_mic_3pack?full_sku=270403

a 3 pack of decent enough mics for pennies.... again 2 packs of these and you can kit out your band with a decent sound.

pick up some misc XLRs

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_horizon_standard_loz_microphone_cable?full_sku =336360%2e154

a couple of xlr to 1/4 inch for the amps

http://www.guitarcenter.com/shop/product/buy_horizon_hiz_14_malexlr_male_cable?full_sku=336 122%2e001%2e082

Male and female

and you are set....

audacity is fine for a editor i use it alot.... i am a fan of soundforge but not for the price.

i will run down the most expensive for everything now

get the $299 mixer

2 sets of the MXL condensers for $200

2 sets of the beringer 3 pack for $130

and misc cables for another $50

and a decent soundcard (audigy 4 recording 24/96 hardware through line input) for about $30

so for about $900 including TAX you will get a very capable home recording solution....

of course chop and change as you see fit....

but this should sound pretty nice especially if you have the cash..

if not

go for the cheaper mixer have at least 4 mic channels 2 for vox 2 for instruments and get 2 of the condenser sets.... that should be a sub $500 situation.

this does sound expensive i know.... it is for brand new stuff... check out ebay for deals, a guy i know got the mxl set for $30 on ebay..

i should upload a recording i did with nothing but a 2 shure sm58's a mixer ( it was a 24 channel mixer but i only used 2 channels) and my minidisc recorder...

the biggest thing you need to remember is the mics, they will make or break a band, and not to play too loud of course...

also an advantage of the more expensive system is that with a couple of powered PA speakers you can go on tour with it!

[jason bourne]

how much money do you have to spend?

all together, about 750, give or take a bit

[jason bourne]

wow dig... +rep :thumbsup:

[jason bourne]

anybody else have an opinion/knowledge on the subject?

[zilong]

i use a fking toneport, a $20 behringer vocal mic, and audacity

i has no cash either ;o;

i havnt recorded anything in a while too, hmmmm

[sir_digalot]

behringer is my new best friend they produce some great quality affordable products. i was introduced to them when i was sounf engineer for a blues club, and we had no budget for anything, and we needed new equipment, one of the musicians came to me and pointed out some behringer stuff i have been a fan ever since, though they tend not to deal with the larger scale equipment if you are looking for a 48 way or higher you are still generally better off with a soundcraft or mackie, i do prefer soundcraft over mackie they have low resitance long travel faders which are great for crossfades and less likely to make a fade out jumpy..

the 24/4 mackie ( 1 of 2) we had at the kingston mines was on it's last legs (all the equipment was) a few channels were intermitant and everytime it rained it leaked all over the board, i remember one night when we were doing a radio show, it was tipping down outside and i had the sound desk covered in plastic bags ans buckets whilst still trying to mix the sound for the radio and the venue... good times. if we would have had enough budget ( or if they had taken me seriously) i would have kitted them out to be one of the best sounding places around... but they got rid of me and my wife before, some of the changes that i recommeded and was shot-down with they later implemented with another sound guy... which made me look bad, and him look good... thats after i redesigned rebuilt and serviced every device in the place to an almost acceptable standard and took the mono pa system and made it stereo with compression and the mono radio broadcast to a high quality stereo feed (balanced) and everything....

needles to say the day that place is out of business is the day i will be happy... other then that.... i'm not bitter :D

[loopcycle]

it really depends on what your goals are...do you want to start building up equipment that will last, or do you just want to get the job done now because your music cant wait?


behringer is the bottom of the bucket in terms of longevity and quality.
it will get the job done now (if you can overlook a few traits) but it wont last.
of course it depends on the product. i have 2 TRS behringer patchbays and they are working out fine at half the price of the competition.


step 1: you need a mixer.

ive gone through 4 mackie mixers in my life and they are built like tanks.
they are popular so there's plenty of them to be found second hand.

however, if i were buying a multipurpose compact mixer, i would go with soundcraft (EPM series).

http://www.8thstreet.com/product.asp?ProductCode=40972&Category=Mixers

one of the reasons...sweepable mid on the input channels.
sweepable mids give you a lot of tonal control.
also, ive become very used to the mackie "sound" in their compact mixers.
im not preferring it at the moment.
however, i am a hypocrite. my mainboard is a mackie 8-buss analog.
im thinking about picking up one of these EPM boards as a submixer.

regardless, the mackie and soundcraft boards will give you the mic pres you need.


step 2: you need a new mic.

this is totally subjective. you need to try it out to figure out what you want.
if you are mic'ing acoustic guitar in the studio, you want a condenser.
i believe that Rode makes excellent condensers for the price.
i have an nt-1 (old mic, out of production).
if you are at gigs out you will not be using a condenser.
you need dynamic mics that can take a beating (eg shure sm57/58).

if you're using an amp you will want a dynamic mic for the cabinet.
alternatively, you can always run your line out from your amp to the mixer.
it usually doesnt sound as good as mic'ing it.

maybe you need two mics, one for vocals and one for guitar.
no matter what, you will find uses for extra mics (for ambient effects, etc).

if you're mic'ing vocals, you need a stand and pop filter.



if you have a decent soundcard you can run your line outs from the mixer into the soundcard.
there are many options for software recording. what are you currently using?

EDIT: NVM. i reread the OP and see you're using Audacity. Whatever you're comfortable with and know is best for now.

Do some research on those MXL microphones online (there should be tons of reviews) to make sure you're getting a good deal for your money. I dont know anything about them, which is not saying much (I'm not a mic collector). Lowest cost does not always mean best.

[jason bourne]

there are many options for software recording. what are you currently using?



you wanna know what we do? we own 2 Samson CO1U Studio Condeser USB mics plugged right into the comp. the three of us sit around them, hit record, and there you go. any editing-->audacity. not very impressive. we're all sick of it, but we dont know jack about recording equipment.

that worked... okay... for us since we were primarily acoustic. granted, the quality and everything wasnt near what we would have liked, but it got the job done. thing is, we're interested in recording some electric (not acoustic/electric, electric) stuff too, and we're complete noobs in the subject of recording :/ (seriously... after reading this post... my friend justin (who is standing right behind me) says, 'what the hell is a mixer'. id answer his question if i could.)




:D thanks for putting up with me

[loopcycle]

no problem, anytime!

what equipment are you using for electric?

so if you're going electric (as in a stompbox or a cabinet) you will have a line output that you can take directly into the line input of your mixer (someday down the road you will probably want to mic your cabinets for a better sound).

[sir_digalot]

i have not been a fan on mackie, but my experience is jaded with them (always second hand after some otherasshat has abused them) and their board design(circuit) was not fun to work on.


just for the record a mixer takes all the individual inputs from microphones, tapes cd's instruments anything that you can plug into it basically and allows you to (in real time) level them out so that the output is as balanced as possible obviously if you were recording you would record the individual instruments and vocals onto sepearate trakcs and mix down all the tracks (with fx if needed) at the end to a standard stereo output..

i will confess not to be a recorder, i deal generally with live sound (though often with a breakout to a DAT of some kind) honestly though for what jason needs it is often best not to spend the money initially for a couple of reasons

if by some chance the band does not stay together... you have not wasted alot of money and you do not argue about who gets their money back when you try and fob it of on ebay :D (though resale if soften quite high for the good stuff)

most bands such as this do not have much money to start with, so cheap and dirty is best... we are not making full top bollix masters for EMI here we are improving usb mics into a PC with the possibility of maybe something better either way a cheaper rig with versitility is better for a start then diving into the big boys stuff... besides you will feel less like you have to sleep wit hthe damn equipment if it is cheap then if it were really expensive and therefore very desirable for others to wish to obtain....(equipment theft is a big problem... and if you have clumsy people (AHEM person you spilt water or beer or whatever on the last lot)you will not be as paranoid about it..

there are a million ways to increase the quality of the system but what will be your output? CD? mp3? while it is great to have the best sound possible at alltimes, we are not also aiming for a high end market here, we are also not professional studios nor audiophiles, (and i have and still do defy many audiophiles to be able to decern as much as they claim in most cases especially in real world applications and not a listening room)

if you can get a quick and dirty rig up for under a grand, to get and marked improvement over what you have then that is the route.... bearing in mind most of the other pro-sumer stuff will eat your budget up with one peice of equipment..

baby steps... start cheap then in a few years when you are a mega millionaire music star and have all top of the line kit, don't forget your buddies here at WiH :D

[jason bourne]

you people are confusing me :(
i have no clue what a stompbox or a cabinet is

we havent recorded anything electric before, with acoustic we'd just hit record on the usb mic and play. somehow we got the feeling recording electric guitar might be different since its so much heavier and deals w/amplifiers and all that junk. we have a guitar, bass, and a couple of amps, and no idea what to do to record our stuff.

[Buckski]

Stomp boxes are boxes that musicians step on and adjust to alter their sound for an electric guitar thru an amplifier. The cabinet is the speakerbox for amplifier head which increase the "noise" of an electric guitar. Some "stomp boxes" have many functions including drum machines and recording capability or playing mp3s etc..

[jason bourne]

stompbox is sorta like an effects pedal?

[Buckski]

It can be but it can also be a whole board of effects such as an digitiech gnx4.
http://www.digitech.com/products/GNX4/index.htm
It is all semantics--tomAto or tomato.

[loopcycle]

JB, you should have line outputs on your amps (othewise known as cabinets).
If you give me the model numbers of the cabinets I can look them up.

******************

You should consider enrolling in a basic recording course at your local community college...practically every music department has one and community colleges are inexpensive. I took two semesters and got a chance to get my hands on some nice equipment, multitrack an orchestral performance, and even got some time to record my friend's collaborative project. Its a great way to get off the ground with this stuff.

You can educate yourself on all of this like I did, but you'll have to do a lot of reading and start picking up equipment for hands-on experience. And it will take longer if you only teach yourself.

[sir_digalot]

depeding on the amp the line out maybe pre FX i think some peaveys do this... sometimes it can be better to mic the output then take direct from the line output or using a D.I. box... (most solid state amps will output the fx through the line out but i have had complaints before that the reinfoced guitar is not as good, and it was the reason stated above...

if possible you can take a mic input and a direct input from the instrument and mix them... i have seen this perform well and sound good too

[loopcycle]

you might be right about that SD, the pre-fx line out thing.
we have to see what he's using.

and mic'ing the amps...yes, almost always a better option in general.
it also means he will need a couple extra dynamic mics and stands for the two amps.

then theres the question of whether he is multitracking all this...a guitar on each track and a vocal on each track, or if they are going straight to stereo.
im not familiar with audacity to know if it multitracks (and if his soundcard has more than one stereo input).

one cost that i totally overlooked before was a good pair of headphones for each musician. a tried and true standby are the AKG k240s. they cost $100 each and will last a good long time.

http://www.akg-acoustics.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,186,id,252,pid,252,_language,E N.html

[sir_digalot]

aww crap hold on guys i think i see where we are going wrong after re-reading some stuff... help me out here, JB is a confessed newb on all this, so lets build a better tutorial... you guys can deal with instrument stuff..

i will start with basics....

Mixer...

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/7/7/8/282778.jpg

(overkill picture)

it takes all your inputs and allows to to "Shape" the final sound usually combining multiple vocals and instruments into a single stereo output for sound reinforcement (pubilc concerts) or basic stereo recording

an essential part of any recording or touring band allows all instruments and vocals to be balanced and not over powering or underheard.

the mixer should accept XLR (microphone) inputs on most channels as well as line they often can take both they have various basic equalisation on them (low mid high mid and high) and will most likely have some form of auxilliary out for things like monitors recording decks etc etc, some of these "aux outs" are pre-fader ( the slider thing) and pre-equalisation ( the other knobs) and some are POST-fader and EQ some are post fader pre EQ some are configurable.... it is important to knwo which is which... study your manual!

most analogue mixers ( just mixers no FX built in or DSP chips etc) will have FX loops for introducing a reverb/echo box and sound compressord to the signal path thus allowing you to dynamically adjust the sound... get to know your mixer it is your bestest friend.. .when a well used mixer eventually goes to silicon heaven it is like a death in the family.... and it seems no new mixer will ever fill that spot ( even identicle ones) it is like an old dog that died on you!

Micorophones

Dynamic


general vocal
http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/3/0/9/244309.jpg

instrument/vocal
http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/3/1/0/244310.jpg

the other essential part of a band.. allows the amplification of vocals above the instruments ( other wise you would have to play real quiet)

dynamic microphones do not require phantom power or any type of power but all of them used balanced outputs (XLR 3 conductor cables - explained later)

the better the microphone the better you sound, depending on what you like to hear also depends on the mic you choose.... dynamics are the meat 'n' potatoes of a band they are generally rugged and can survive a punishment...their sound however is often inferior to condenser mics

the 2 pictured (shure sm58 and shure sm57) are probably the most common and well known in most circles they are a tad expensive for starting up, but will last a helluva long time.... their sound is not that bad either...

condenser mics

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/2/8/2/224282.jpg

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/3/5/5/309355.jpg

condensers require power, this is usually 48V "phantom power" most mixers can supply this on all channels they are the best thing to use for recording ( unless you want a valve mic or some exotic brand) they give an excellent crisp clean sound often have a diaphragm ( the wobbly bit that picks up the sound waves) larger then most dynmics and are used wherever possible... (some of my best live recordings have come from a relativly cheap set of condensers) often used in a live setting for drums/cymbals as their frequency response is much greater then a dynamic... but can be used almost anywhere...

EQ's (equlaizers)

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/8/5/1/240851.jpg

we generally used these to "fine tune" to the room and environmental acoustics, often the more bands the better but not always the case, i think we have all used various forms of these in the past even if it is on our home stereo equipment.... depending on where you put them you can EQ the room, or EQ the monitor speakers for on stage... i sometimes like to have an EQ for the drummer as they like to hear a somewhat different sound to the front runners, though this can often be acheived in different ways. not necassarily essential by any means at least nto to start with.... later however... but thats why when you are famous you have sound crews to do all this crap for you :D




Power amps

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/9/8/4/265984.jpg

where does the output from a mixer go???

often into one ( or more) of these... these puppies power your speakers... not much to say, many can be "bridged" in mono and combined to make more powerfull setups.... ifyou have any house P.A. speakers and monitors you may well need at least 2 of these.... (or more) again if you are not toruing or clubbing it then you may well not need these...

speakers (front of house)

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/8/4/5/375845.jpg

nuff said really... plug these babies into your power amps.... make sure you get the right power handling for the amps or you will either go through amplifiers like kleenex or you will go through speaker cones in the same way...

same rules apply to that of amps if you are not touring

speaker (monitor)

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/9/0/0/280900.jpg

these are because all musicians love to hear themselves!

they can be replaced these days by in ear monitoring but for the most part you will be dealing with these, giving your sound guy a headache coz you play too loud and can't hear yourself in them getting the juice pumped throug hthem then causing screechy feedback and blowing the lightbulb inside them and the fuse and the high(tweeter) the first solution to this is play a little more quiet :D

XLR

http://img3.guitarcenter.com/dbase/pics/products/6/2/0/246620.jpg

your meat n potaoes cable..... learn to make these learn to soldier them learn to eat sleep and make love with them.... they will trip you, they will hurt you, but they are your only means of survival...

they have a tendency to flake out at the worst times, you love them you hate them.....

xlr's take the signal from the mics along a balanced line ( this means that they suffer alot less from outside electromagnetic interference over long runs) they are deigned very low impedance and you will see these puppies snaked everywhere.... often their warning signs of impending doom are a very buzzy sound or loud crackeling that can kill you speakers ( and or recording)

that really is the basics of live sound... there is a lot lot more

recording you are using a PC make sure you have a decent sound card after all that!

though if you can get a regular DAT recorder that accepts digital in then you can get a 24/96 Digital to analogue converter and record thatway connected straight to the desk..

in your case though you may want to take the out from the mixer ( left and right Mixed usually the RED faders) striaght into the sound card and record in the highest quality your card allows... of course some people ( like me) wouldn't mind a balanced input (XLR or TRS) input sound card to keep the last part as noise free as possible... but these days new mixers are being made with high quality Digital audio converters in them and you can literally SPDIF (or other digital format) straight tothe drive for almost no loss in quality at all....

the problem is the more you deal with all this the more pure you want your sound to be on the final product to be and then you start getting obsessive and kinda crazy with that mad glint in your eye...


now if my esteemed musician friends can take the reigns and give a breakdown of the stuff they are likely to enconter on the instrument front i would be grateful!

[sir_digalot]

he could always use multiple sound cards... but the software may not allow more then one to be used..

i spose you could do it the "old fashioned" way by recording a metronome or drum beat then palying it back in headphones while seperatly recording each instrument in time with the other it takes a long time and a lot of practice thoug has you cannot feedback of each other as you listen and play.... but if you only have 1 input on your sound card and need more then one track then it is one of the only ways.

audacity i beleive does support more then one track... ( at least stereo) possibly more ubt the chances of the soundcard supporting more then one imput is slim... (though am i right in thinkingthe SB live and audigy series has at least 2 lin inputs? you could do 4 channels then simultaneously

[loopcycle]

you wanna know what we do? we own 2 Samson CO1U Studio Condeser USB mics plugged right into the comp. the three of us sit around them, hit record, and there you go. any editing-->audacity. not very impressive. we're all sick of it, but we dont know jack about recording equipment.

that worked... okay... for us since we were primarily acoustic. granted, the quality and everything wasnt near what we would have liked, but it got the job done. thing is, we're interested in recording some electric (not acoustic/electric, electric) stuff too, and we're complete noobs in the subject of recording


let me get this straight: you had two C01u's for three of you. so you all clustered around one mic near your guitars, and used the other one for all vocals, all recording at the same time, songs done in one take, straight to a stereo recording like a wav file? or did you each play your parts one at a time (separate recordings), then mixed them together in the computer?

and what are you guys "sick of" with that arrangement? too cramped?

this will help me understand what you want to do.

[jason bourne]

it was like some indian pow-wow, all of us clustered around the mic :biggrinjester:
sometimes people couldn't be heard, itd get too soft or too loud, playback and itd just sound weird sometimes

recently we gave up on that and we just record it separately, one part at a time with the guy that was recording his part sitting there with headphones on, listening and playing. it was kind of primitive but it worked hella lot better than our little pow-wow method :D but that was all with acoustic guitar, we have no idea how to record with our electrics, amps, effects pedals etc



i think ill read up a couple of books on the subject... and ill take loops advice, see if i can get in a newb course about this stuff

[loopcycle]

ok, cool.
so you've learned about taking it one track at a time.
when each of you sings and plays at the same time, then you mix those together later, thats a basic form of multitracking.

multitracking just means you are laying down more than one recording (mono or stereo) to be mixed down to a stereo track later.

by using those two USB mics like that, you were essentially recording two tracks at a time, one for the guitar and one for the vocal. with that arrangement you would be limited by the number of mics and USB ports you have (and your computer hardware, and the software, if any).

when you record track by track that way, its harder to get into the groove that you can get into when you all play together. so i assume that you guys would like to lay it all down at the same time, not go part by part like that.

here's an example of a recording setup for three guitarists and vocalists:

artist1: mic for voice and mic for guitar
artist2: mic for voice and mic for guitar
artist3: mic for voice and mic for guitar = 6 mics and 6 mic stands

6 XLR cables from microphones to your 6-channel mixer (inputs 1-6).

2 rca-rca (or 1/4" - rca) cables from the mixer to your line in for the soundcard.

this would allow you to:
- adjust the level of each vocalist on each input channel
- adjust the level of each guitar on each input channel
- apply EQ to each voice and each guitar
- send all of it from the mixer into the soundcard as a stereo recording

i was going to post a mackie hook-up guide but the site's not responding from here.

[sir_digalot]

here is a link to the mackie hookup guide ( they are very good and quite clear) in PDF form

http://www.dreamrealms.com/vlzproseries_hu.pdf

it is about 1mb in size, the good thing is it relates to nearly all mixers out there

[sir_digalot]

so what style of music do you 2 (jb and loop) play/record and or like to perform?

[jason bourne]

so what style of music do you 2 (jb and loop) play/record and or like to perform?

acoustic rock, mellowed out and slightly emo-ish

then we also bust out our electrics and play heavier stuff, its got an indie-alternative-modern rock kind of feel

[loopcycle]

my instrument of choice is a sampler, with different forms of synthesis (additive, subtractive analog, frequency modulation) thrown in to the audio collage of found sounds.